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A 

CONVERSATION  ON  MUSIC 


ANTON  RUBINSTEIN 


Translated  for  the  Author 


MRS.  JOHN  P.  MORGAN. 


PRICE  :  Cloth,  $i.oo. 


CHAS.  F.  TRETBAR,   Publisher^   Steinway  Hall,   New  York. 

Copyright,  1892,  by  C.  F.  Tretbar. 


A  CONVERSATION  ON  MUSIC. 


Madame  von  —  honors  me  with  a  visit  at  my 
villa  in  Peterhof  5  after  the  usual  salutations  she 
expresses  a  wish  to  inspect  my  home  surround- 
ings; in  the  music-room  she  notices  the  busts  of 
J.  S.  Bach,  Beethoven,  Schubert,  Chopin,  and 
Glinka  on  the  walls,  and,  greatly  surprised, 
asks: 

— Why  only  these  and  not  also  Handel,  Haydn, 
Mozart  and  others! 

— These  are  the  ones  whom  I  most  revere  in 
my  art. 

— Then  you  do  not  revere  Mozart? 

— Himalaya  and  Chimborazo  are  the  highest 
peaks  of  the  earth ;  that  does  not  imply,  however, 
that  Mt.  Blanc  is  a  little  mountain. 


— But  Mozart  is  generally  considered  this 
highest  point  of  which  you  speak !  he  has  indeed 
given  us  in  his  Operas,  the  highest  of  which 
music  is  capable. 

— To  me^  the  Opera  is  altogether  a  subordinate 
branch  of  our  art. 

— In  that  you  are  exactly  opposed  to  the  views 
of  the  present  day,  they  advocate  vocal  music  as 
the  highest  expression  of  music. 

— That  I  am.  First,  because  the  human  voice 
sets  a  limit  to  melody  which  the  instrument  does 
not,  and  of  which  the  emotion  of  the  human  soul, 
be  it  joy  or  sorrow^,  does  not  admit.  Second,  be- 
cause words,  even. the  most  beautifully  poetised, 
are  not  capable  of  expressing  exuberance  of  feel- 
ing, hence  the  very  correct,  '^inexpressible." 
Third,  because  a  human  being  may,  in  the  most 
exalted  joy,  hum  or  carol  a  melody  to  himself, 
but  could  and  would  not  set  words  to  it — even  as 
in  the  deepest  sorrow  he  may  perhaps  hum  a  mel- 
ody to  himself,  most  certainly,  however,  without 
words.     Fourth,  because  the  tragic  in  no  opera 


sounds  or  can  sound  as  it  is  heard  in  the  2d  move- 
ment of  Beethoven's  D  minor  Trio,  or  in  the 
Adagios  of  his  F  major,  E  minor,  F  minor  and 
other  string-quartets,  or  in  the  prehide  in  E  flat- 
minor  of  Bach's  "  Wohl  temperirte  Clavier,"  or 
in  the  E  minor  prelude  of  Chopin;  likewise  no 
Requiem,  not  even  the  Mozart  {Confutatis  and 
LacJirimosa  excepted),  makes  an  impression  so 
deeply  moving  as  the  2d  movement  of  the  Sym- 
phony "Eroica"  of  Beethoven  (a  whole  mass  for 
the  dead!),  or  contains  the  same  proportion  of  the 
expression  of  joy  and  the  soul's  emotions  in  gen- 
eral as  are  heard  in  the  instrumental  works 
of  the  great  masters.  To  me,  for  instance,  the 
Leonore  Overture,  No.  3,  and  the  Introduction  to 
the  2d  Act  of  Fidelio  are  a  much  higher  ex- 
pression of  this  drama  than  the  Opera  itself. 

— There  are,  however,  composers  Avho  have 
written  vocal  music  exclusively;  do  you  conse- 
quently despise  them? 

— Such  composers  seem  to  me  like  people  who 
only  have  the  right  to  answer  questions  proposed 


6 

to  them,  not,  however,  to  ask  questions  or  to  de- 
clare and  express  themselves. 

— But  why  does  every  composer,  and  as  is 
well  known  did  Beethoven,  also,  long  to  write  an 
Opera  f 

— Quick  and  general  recognition  has  in  it  some- 
thing very  enticing — to  see  gods,  kings,  priests, 
heroes,  peasants,  men  of  all  times,  all  climes,  and 
of  every  art,  act  and  sing  to  one's  melodies,  has 
something,  indeed,  enticing  in  it — the  highest, 
however,  remains  to  express  one's  self  about  tJiem, 
and  that  can  be  done  instrumentally  only. 

— The  public,  however,  prefers  the  Opera  to  the 
Symphony. 

— Because  it  undei'stands  the  Opera  more 
readily.  Aside  from  the  interest  which  the  subject 
of  the  play  awakens,  the  words  explain  the  music 
to  it. — To  be  wholly  enjoyable,  the  Symphony  re- 
quires the  comprehension  of  music  and  this  qual- 
ity is  possessed  only  in  the  smallest  proportion  by 
the  public.  Instrumental  music  is  the  soul  of  music 
— ^but  this  truth  must  be  anticipated,  sought  out. 


discovered,  fathomed.  The  public  does  not  trouble 
itself  to  do  this  in  listening  to  a  work! — AU  the 
beauties  to  be  found  in  the  instrumental  works  of 
the  great  masters  (classic)  are  known  to  the  pub- 
lic from  childhood,  through  the  enthusiasm  of 
parents  or  the  expressed  opinions  of  its  teachers, 
which  a  priori  admiration  it  brings  with  it ;  should 
it,  however,  be  obliged  to  discover  their  beauties 
of  itself,  it  would  be  sparing  of  its  applause,  even 
to  the  classical  works,  now-a-days. 

— I  see  that  you  are  entirely  predisposed  in 
favor  of  instrumental  music. 

— Not  exclusively,  of  course,  but  at  all  events 
in  a  high  degree. 

— Mozart  has  written  very  much  instrumental 
music  of  all  kinds,  too. 

— And  wondrously  beautiful;  but  Mt.  Blanc  is 
still  not  as  high  as  Chimborazo. 

— How  is  it  then  that  Chopin  and  Glinka  are 
among  your  prophets  ? 

— To  explain  that,  would,  I  am  afraid,  weary 
you  or  interest  you  too  little. 


8 

— I  beg  you  to  do  so,  witli  the  single  condition 
that  you  do  not  oblige  me  to  agree  with  aU  you 
may  say. 

— On  the  contrary,  I  wish  very  much  to  hear 
the  objections  to  my  opinions,  only  do  not  be  too 
much  frightened  by  my  paradoxes  ! 

— I  am  all  ear. 

— It  has  always  been  a  matter  of  interesting 
speculation  to  me  whether  and  in  ivhat  degree  music 
not  only  reflects  the  individuality  and  spiritual 
emotion  of  the  composer,  but  is  also  the  echo  or  re- 
frain of  the  age,  the  historical  events,  the  state  of 
society,  culture,  etc.,  in  which  it  is  written.  And 
I  am  convinced  that  it  does  and  is  so,  even  to  the 
smallest  detaU  that  even  the  costumes  and  fashions 
of  the  time  in  which  the  composer  writes  are  to  be 
recognized,  entirely  aside  from  the  quaint  "cue" 
which  usually  serves  as  a  characteristic  of  a  certain 
epoch — only,  however,  since  music  has  become  a 
language  of  its  own  and  not  the  mere  interpreter 
of  set  words,  viz.:  since  the  flourish  of  instrumen- 
tal music. 


9 

— It  is  generally  held  that  music  does  not  admit 
of  any  positive  characteristic  at  all;  that  one 
and  the  same  melody  may  sound  gay  or  sad,  ac- 
cording to  the  character  of  the  words  to  which  it 
is  sung. 

— To  me  instrumental  music  alone  is  the  stand- 
ard, and  I  hold  that  music  is  a  language — to  be 
sure  of  a  hieroglyphic  tone — image,  character; 
one  must  first  have  deciphered  the  hieroglyphics, 
then,  however,  he  may  read  all  that  the  composer 
intends  to  say,  and  there  remains  only  the  more 
particidar  indication  of  the  meaning — the  latter  is 
the  task  of  the  interpreter.  For  example: — 
Beethoven's  Sonata,  op.  81 ;  in  the  first  move- 
ment, designated  "ies  adieux^''  the  character  of 
the  Allegro,  after  the  introduction,  does  not 
throughout  give  expression  to  the  usual  idea  of 
sorrow  at  parting.  What  then  is  to  be  deci- 
phered from  these  hieroglyphics  I  The  care  and 
preparation  for  departure,  the  numberless  fare- 
wells, the  sincere  sympathy  of  those  remaining 
behind,  the  varied  reflections  on  the  long  journey,. 


10 

the  good  wishes,  in  a  word  all  the  exchanges  of 
endearment  usual  in  leaving  those  we  love.  The 
second  movement  is  called  '^  L' absence 'j^^  if  the 
executant  be  able  to  express  the  soulful  tone  of 
sorrow  and  longing  in  his  interpretation,  no 
farther  explanation  is  necessary.  The  third 
movement  is  called  "  Le  retour,^^  and  the  inter- 
preter has  to  present  to  his  hearers  a  whole  poem 
on  the  joys  of  return.  The  first  theme  of  un- 
speakable tenderness  (one  almost  sees  the  tearful 
glance  of  happiness  in  meeting)  then  the  joy  that 
it  is  well  with  him,  the  interest  in  the  recounting 
of  his  experience  and  the  ever  recurring :  '^  What 
a  joy  to  see  you  again! — do  not  leave  us  (me) 
again !  we  (I)  shall  not  let  him  go  again,"  and  so 
on.  Before  the  close  another  glance  of  pleased 
satisfaction,  then  the  embrace  and  climax  of  happi- 
ness. Is  it  possible  not  to  call  instrumental  music 
a  language  f  Of  course,  if  the  first  movement  be 
rendered  merely  in  a  lively  tempo,  the  second 
merely  in  a  slow  tempo,  and  the  third  merely  in 
a  spirited  tempo,  the  executant  feeling  no  neces- 


11 

sity  for  further  expression,  then  we  might  call  in- 
strumental music  non-expressive,  and  regard  vo- 
cal music  as  alone  capable  of  real  expression. 
Another  example: — The  ballad  in  F  major,  No. 
2  of  Chopin.  Is  it  possible  that  the  interpreter 
does  not  feel  the  necessity  of  representing  to  his 
hearers: — a  field  flower  caught  by  a  gust  of  wind, 
a  caressing  of  the  flower  by  the  wind,  the  resist- 
ance of  the  flower,  the  stormy  struggle  of  the 
wind,  the  entreaty  of  the  flower  which  at  last  lies 
broken  there.  This  may  also  be  paraphrased, 
the  field  flower,  a  rustic  maiden,  the  wind  a 
knight,  and  thus  with  almost  every  instriimental 
composition. 

— Then  you  are  an  advocate  of  "  programme 
music  ?  " 

— Not  altogether.  I  am  in  favor  of  tJie  to-be-  \ 
divined  and  poetised^  not  of  the  given  programme 
of  a  composition.  I  am  convinced  that  every  com- 
poser writes,  not  merely  notes  in  a  given 
key,  a  given  tempo,  a  given  rhythm ;  but,  on 
the  contrary,  encloses  a  mood  of  the  tone,  that 


12 

is,  a  programme  in  his  composition,  in  the  rational 
hope  that  the  interpreter  and  hearer  may  appre- 
hend it.  Sometimes  he  gives  his  composition  a 
general  name,  that  is,  a  guide  for  interpreter  and 
hearer,  and  more  than  this  is  not  necessary,  for 
a  detailed  programme  of  emotion  is  not  to  be  re- 
produced in  words.  Thus  I  understand  programme 
music,  not,  however,  in  the  sense  of  the  reflected 
tone-painting  of  certain  things  or  events;  the 
latter  is  admissible  only  in  the  sense  of  the  naive 
or  comic. 

— But  the  Pastorale  Symphony  of  Beethoven  is 
certainly  tone-painting ! 

— The  Pastorale  establishes  a  characteristic 
expression  in  music  of  the  rustic,  the  merry,  the 
simple,  the  hardy  (represented  by  the  fifths  in 
bass  and  organ  point*).  Besides  this  there  are 
imitations  of  natural  phenomena,  as  storm,  thun- 
der, lightning,  etc.,  exactly  the  above-mentioned 
naivete  in  music,  as  well  as  the  imitation  of  the 

* )  This  has  no  reference  to  the  Russian  Pastorale,  the  character 
of  which  is  quite  different,  and  is  mostly  of  a  vocal  art. 


13 

cuckoo,  and  the  twitter  of  birds.  Aside  from 
this  tone-painting  Beethoven's  Symphony  mirrors 
only  the  mood  of  nature  and  the  rustic;  that  is, 
programme  music  in  its  most  logical  expression. 

— The  Romantic-Fantastic  style:  elves,  witches, 
fairies,  nixies,  gnomes,  demons,  good  and  evil 
spirits,  spectres,  and  so  forth  without  a  programme 
is  inconceivable  ? ! 

— And  quite  correctly,  as  it  is  based  entirely  on 
naivete  in  the  composer  as  well  as  in  the  hearer. 

— But  every  piece  of  music  published  now-a- 
days  (with  the  exception  of  those  in  which  the  title 
designates  the  musical  form,  as  sonata,  etc.)  bears 
a  name,  that  is,  a  programme  designation  ? ! 

— The  publishers  are  mostly  to  blame  for  that; 
they  compel  the  composer  to  give  his  composition 
a,  name  in  order  to  spare  the  public  the  trouble 
of  having  to  apprehend  it,  and  many  titles,  such 
as  Noctumo,  Romanze,  Impromptu,  Caprice,  Bar- 
carole, etc.,  having  become  stereotype,  facilitate 
the  understanding  and  rendering  of  the  composi- 
tion for  the  public;   otherwise  these  works  would 


14 


run  the  risk  of  receiving  names  from  the  public 
itself.  How  droll  this  may  become  is  sufficiently 
shown  by  one  example  :  '^  The  Moonlight  Sonata." 
Moonlight  demands  in  music  the  expression  of 
the  dreamy,  fanciful,  peaceful — a  soft,  mild  radi- 
ance. Now  the  first  movement  of  the  C  sharp 
minor  Sonata  is  tragic  from  the  first  to  the  last 
note  (the  minor  key  itself  indicates  as  much); 
a  beclouded  heaven,  the  gloomy  mood  of  the 
soul — the  last  movement  is  stormy,  passionate, 
and  the  exact  opposite  of  peaceful  radiance ;  the 
short  second  movement  alone  would  in  any  case 
allow  of  a  momentary  moonlight — -and  this  sonata 
is  universally  called  "  The  Moonlight  Sonata  !  " 

— You  claim  then  that  the  composer  alone  can 
give  his  work  a  proper  title  ? 

— I  will  not  say  that.  Even  with  Beethoven's 
appellations,  the  Pastorale  Symphony  and  Sonata 
op.  81  excepted,  I  cannot  declare  myself  satisfied. 
If  I  did  so  I  should  be  obliged  to  assume  that  he 
determined  the  name  of  the  whole  composition 
according   to   the    character   of   one   movement^ 


15 

or  tlie  theme  of  one  movement,  or  an  episodic 
phrase  of  one  movement.  For  example:  ^^ Sonata 
PatJietiquc" — probably  so  called  from  the  charac- 
ter of  the  introduction,  and  its  episodical  repe- 
tition during  the  first  movement ;  for  the  theme 
of  the  first  allegro  bears  a  decidedly  dramatic, 
animated  character  ;  and  the  second  theme  with 
its  mordents  is  anything  rather  than  pathetic, 
and  even  the  last  movement — what  indeed  of 
the  pathetic  does  it  contain  ?  Only  the  second 
movement,  at  most,  would  admit  of  this  title. 
The  same  is  true,  in  my  opinion,  of  the  Sym- 
phony "Eroica."  The  idea  of  heroic  is  in 
musical  language  the  valorous,  splendid,  defiant, 
or,  in  other  words,  the  tragic.  That  the  first  move- 
ment is  not  intended  to  be  tragic  is  indicated  at 
once  by  the  major  key  5  the  f  measure  also  contra- 
dicts the  idea  of  a  tragic-heroic  character.  ,  Besides 
this,  the  legato  of  the  first  theme  indicates  a  decided 
lyric  character,  the  second  theme  has  a  pronounced 
longing  character,  the  third  theme  a  sorrowing- 
dreamy  one.      That  powerful  efi'ects  appear  in. 


16 


the  movement  proves  nothing.  Powerful  moments 
may  also  be  found  in  compositions  of  a  melancholy 
character,  but  a  movement  in  which  all  of  the 
themes  are  of  a  decidedly  anti-heroic  character 
I  cannot  designate  heroic.  The  third  movement 
of  the  symphony  is  probably  a  merry  music  of 
the  chase  5  the  fourth  movement,  a  theme  with 
variations,  of  which  two  at  most  have  a  heroic 
colour,  might  indeed  be  called  of  heroic  character 
if  it  entered  forte  with  the  brass  instruments. 
The  title  then  is  given  to  the  Symphony  only  on 
Account  of  the  second  movement,  which  indeed  is 
of  an  entirely  tragic-heroic  character !  This  is 
an  evidence  that  at  that  time  one  could  give  a 
title  to  his  work  which  corresponded  to  one  only 
of  its  movements  |  to-day  it  is  otherwise  (per- 
haps more  correct);  a  title  implies  one  and  the 
same  characteristic  for  the  whole  Avork  from 
beginning  to  end. 

— You  speak  of  instrumental  music  only,  then 
music  for  you  begins  with  Haydn  ? 

— 0,  much  earlier !    Two  centuries  were  needed 


17 


to  arrive  at  Haydn's  maturity  in  form  and  tone 
effect.  I  call  the  time  until  the  second  half  of  the 
XVI.  century  the  prehistoric  era  of  music  as  an  art, 
since  we  know  nothing  whatever  of  the  music  of  the 
ancient  Hebrews,  Greeks,  and  Romans,  or  at  least 
only  its  scientific  progress ;  the  latter  too  only 
from  the  time  of  the  Christian  era  until  the 
above-mentioned  age  j  even  of  the  folk-song*),  and 
the  dance  rhythm,  these  two  most  popular  expres- 
sions of  music,  there  is  almost  nothing  knowTi  to 
us**),  hence  I  denote  the  above-mentioned  date 
as  the  beginning  of  music  as  an  art***).  Pales- 
trina's  church  compositions  are  the  first  works  of 


*)  With  the  exception  of  the  Ambrosian  and  Gregorian 
chants  we  cannot  say  Avith  certainty  whether  folk  songs,  by  a 
setting  of  rehgious  texts,  became  church  songs  or  the  opposite, 
that  church  songs  by  the  use  of  profane  text  have  become  folk- 
songs. 

**)  Of  the  Troubadours,  Minne-singers,  yes,  even  of  the 
later  Meistersingers,  we  know  only  the  literary  history,  little 
or  nothing  of  the  musical. 

***)  The  Netherland  epoch  I  also  reckon  as  only  a  scientific 
epoch  of  the  art  of  music. 


18 

art,  in  the  following  sense :  I  call  a  work  of  art 
one  in  which  the  merely  scientific  ceases  to  be  the 
prescribed  standard,  and  in  which  a  spiritual 
emotion  asserts  itself.  Frescobaldi's  organ  com- 
positions give  to  this  instrument  artistic  character^ 
the  English  composers,  Bull,  Bird  and  others, 
attempt  the  artistic  for  the  Virginal  and  Clavecin 
(our  modem  pianoforte). 

— Can  we  refer  these  beginnings  of  the  artistic 
in  music  in  any  manner  to  the  historical  events 
of  that  day,  or  to  its  state  of  cidture  ? 

— In  church  music  it  is  the  immediate  effect 
of  the  straits  of  the  Catholic  church,  whose  Popes, 
incited  by  the  attacks  of  Protestanism,  felt  them- 
selves obliged  to  carry  out  a  stricter  discipline 
and  higher  standard  in  monkish  and  ecclesiastic 
affairs,  and  a  more  earnest  aim  and  more  ideal 
views  in  questions  of  religion.  In  profane  music 
it  is  the  natural  effect  of  the  splendor  of  the 
courts  of  that  day,  especially  the  English  Court 
of  Elizabeth  ;  her  predilection  for  music  and  for 
the    Virginal,    which    led   composers    to    write 


19 

amusingly  and,  according  to  the  standard  of  that 
time,  interestingly. 

— Do  you  find  in  their  compositions  a  sufficient 
degree  of  spiritual  emotion  that  you  would  caU 
them  artistic  ? 

— Certainly  not ;  I  would  call  these  the  first 
endeavors  to  express  something  instrumentaUy. 

— So  these  are  naive  expressions  of  art  ? 

— Yes,  of  coui'se ;  they  are  the  first  programme- 
music,  in  the  sense  of  naive  imitation,  of  enter- 
tainment, for  society.  This  style  held  sway  a 
whole  century,  that  is,  until  the  "  Suite "  (a 
succession  of  dances  then  in  vogue);  in  France 
even  longer,  as  there  the  twD  most  distinguished 
musicians  admired  this  style,  and  in  it  did  really 
very  remarkable  work  :  Couperin  and  Rameau. 

— And  in  Italy  ? 

— There,  church  music  flourished  especially, 
but  was  gradually  overshadowed  by  a  new  style 
of  art  which  began  to  develop  itself,  viz.:  the 
Opera.  In  instrumental  music,  with  the  excep- 
tion of  numerous  organists,  only  two  names  can 


20 


command  our  attention,  Corelli  for  the  Violin 
and  D.  Scarlatti  for  the  Pianoforte.*)  The  latter 
called  his  compositions  Sonata,  i.e.,  ^^  sounding ^^^ 
'•'■  plmjcd^''  but  they  have  nothing  in  common  with 
the  later  sonata  form. 

— So  in  instrumental  music,  and  this,  if  I 
rightly  understand  you,  is  what  alone  interests 
you,  we  were  then  still  in  a  state  of  infancy  ? 

— Quite  true,  although  I  would  not  wish  to 
have  Scarlatti,  Couperin  and  Eameau  under- 
valued. The  first,  on  account  of  his  freshness, 
his  humor  and  his  virtuosity ;  in  the  second  I 
appreciate  a  highly  remarkable,  artistic  nature, 
and  a  combatant  for  higher  art  aims  in  an  insig- 
nificant epoch  in  music,  especially  in  his  own 
country  ;  the  third  I  esteem  as  a  pioneer  and 
founder  of  the  French  Comic  Opera,  who  also 
composed  very  ingeniously  for  the  pianoforte. 


*)  Compositions  written  for  Clavecin,  Clavichord,  Clavi- 
cembalo, Virginal,  Spinett,  etc.,  I  designate  as  written  for 
Pianoforte,  as  to-day  we  can  only  perform  them  on  this  instru- 
ment. 


21 

— But  in  England,  instnunental  music,  at 
least  for  the  Pianoforte,  must  have  developed 
itself,  since  its  first  beginnings  are  discovered 
there?! 

— There,  too,  vocal  music  occupied  the  fore- 
groimd,  especially  in  madrigals  and  other  choral 
works,  but  it  is  as  though,  with  Henry  Purcell, 
this  nation  had  given  expression  to  everything  of 
which  it  was  capable,  for  after  him  complete 
silence  reigns,  and  with  the  exception  of  the 
Oratorio  and  the  Opera  (both  styles  nourished 
and  represented  by  foreigners)  it  has  so  remained 
almost  to  the  present  day,  when  it  begins  to 
wake  again. 

— One  thing  is  enigmatical  to  me — what 
Shakespeare  could  have  heard  of  music  there, 
in  his  time,  that  so  inspired  him  with  a  love 
for  this  art? 

— Is  he  not  the  one  among  poets  who  expresses 
himself  the  most  often  and  the  most  enthusiastic- 
ally on  music,  and  even  in  his  Sonnets  on  piano- 
playing. 


22 

— And  in  Germany  ? 

— There  cliurch  music,  with  Luther,  acquired 
a  new  character  hy  the  introduction  of  the  Choral 
and  as  in  Italy,  so  in  Germany  distinguished 
organists  appear  (Frohberger,  Kuhnau,  Buxte- 
hude).  In  general,  however,  music  as  an  art,  in 
comparison  with  Italy,  has  not  as  yet  reached  an 
important  standpoint,  but  all  at  once,  in  the  same 
year,  and  in  villages  merely  a  few  hours  apart, 
two  names  shine  forth  with  which  music  expresses 
herself  in  a  splendor,  a  perfection  equal  to  the 
^^ Let  there  be  light !^^  These  two  names  are: 
J.  S.  Bach  and  G.  F.  Handel.  Church  music, 
organ,  pianoforte  virtuosity,  opera,  even  the 
orchestra,  everything  musical  of  their  time,  these 
two  names  represent  in  'a  perfection  that  is  incon- 
ceivable, and  bordering  on  the  miraculous. 
With  them  music  first  attains  the  rank  to  which 
she  is  equally  entitled  by  birth  among  the  arts — 
to  be  sure  she  is  the  youngest  sister,  but  through 
these  masters  she  receives  the  perfect  stamp  of 
maturity. 


23 

— And  do  you  consider  them  equally  exalted? 

— To  me  Bach  is  incomparably  higher,  because 
more  earnest,  more  genial,  more  profound,  more 
iaventive,  more  incommensurable ;  but  to  com- 
plete the  idea  of  the  art  of  music  at  that  time, 
the  union  of  the  two  names  is  necessary,  if  only 
on  account  of  the  remarkable  work  accomplished 
by  Handel  in  the  Opera,  a  branch  of  art  which 
Bach  ignored  entirely. 

— How  does  your  idea  that  music  is  the  ex- 
pression of  historical  events  and  the  standard  of 
the  culture  of  a  given  time  coincide  with  the  still- 
stand  of  the  art  of  music  in  Germany  during  the 
whole  of  the  XYII.  Century  and  with  the  sudden 
appearance  of  these  two  stars  ?  You  can  scarcely 
deny  that  exactly  at  this  time  many  great  events 
took  place  ? 

— It  is  oftener  the  echo  than  the  re-echo,  and 
so  also  here.  It  was  the  war  between  Catholicism 
and  Protestantism;  during  the  strife,  music  was 
only  the  pray er  in  the  ritual ;  the  Protestant  re- 
ligion gained  an  equal  footing  with  the  Catholic, 


24 

that  is,  it  emerged  victoriously  from  the  strife, 
and  Bach  and  Handel  arose  to  sing  her  Hymn  of 
Victory ! 

— But  were  they  not  fundamentally  different 
in  style  ? 

— Certainly,  that  arises  naturally  from  the  dif- 
ference in  the  style  of  life  of  each  and  its  de- 
mands. Bach  moved  in  a  small  world,  lived  in 
several,  then  insignificant  cities  (last  in  Leipzig), 
in  the  circle  of  his  large  family,  in  his  narrow 
calling  of  Cantor  at  the  church  of  St.  Thomas  j 
his  character  was  serious,  deeply  religious,  patri- 
archal, of  a  nature  not  given  to  sociability;  his 
dress  unpretending  and  plain,  and  he  was  an 
indefatigable  worker,  even  to  blindness.  Handel 
lived  mostly  in  the  great  city  of  London,  had  the 
patronage  of  the  Court  and  of  the  public,  was  an 
Opera  Director,  was  compelled  to  write  Court  and 
Festival  music  J  we  know  little  of  his  family,  very 
little  of  his  social  lifej  he  wore  a  long  perruque, 
and  in  general  the  elegant  dress  of  the  higher 
English    circle;    grandeur,    splendor,    and   some 


25 

superficiality*)  characterize  his  creations;  he 
wrote  Operas,  profane  and  sacred  Oratorios,  few 
instrumental  works  (the  most  beautifully  in  his 
Pianoforte  Suites),  thus,  seldom  intimej  soulful, 
tender. 

— To  you  Bach  is  more  sympathetic,  because 
he  has  written  more  instrumental  works? 

— Not  merely  on  that  account,  (for  has  he  not 
written  a  mass  of  vocal  works  unspeakably  great 
and  beautiful?)  but  on  account  of  the  qualities  be- 
fore mentioned.  I  do  not  deny,  however,  that  he 
(Bach)  appears  to  me  greater  at  his  organ  and  at 
his  piano. 

— You  are  thinking,  of  course,  of  the  '^  Wohl- 
temperirte  Clavier"? 

— You  probably  know  the  anecdote  of  Benve- 
nuto  Cellini,  who  had  a  great  work  to  cast  for  the 
King    of    France,    and    found    himself  without 

*)  Proof  thereof,  the  possibility  of  transforming  an  Opera  num- 
ber into  an  Oratorio  and  vice  versa,  an  Oratorio  number  into  an 
Opera,  which  he,  as  is  well  known  not  seldom  did;  also  tlie  ra- 
pidity of  his  work — the  Messiah  was  written  in  three  weeks,  and 
immediately  after  that  "Samson,"  in  as  short  a  time. 


26 

material  enough  to  finish  it;  he  decided  to  melt 
all  of  his  models  in  order  to  increase  the  material; 
in  doing  so  the  model  of  a  little  goblet  came  to 
hand;  he  hesitates;  that,  he  wlU  not  destroy;  it 
would  grieve  him  too  much!  The  Wohl-temper- 
irte  Clavier  is  just  such  a  jewel  in  music.  If,  un- 
fortunately, aU  of  Bach's  Cantatas,  Motettes, 
Masses,  yes,  even  the  Passion-Music,  were  to  be 
lost,  and  this  alone  remained,  we  would  not  need 
despair,  music  were  not  entirely  destroyed.  Now, 
add  to  this  the  Chromatic-Fantasia,  the  Varia- 
tions, Partiten,  Inventions,  the  English  Suites, 
the  Concertos,  the  Ciacona,  the  Piano  and  Vio- 
lin Sonates,  and  more  than  aU — ^his  Organ  Com- 
positions!    Can  one  measure  his  greatness? 

— Why  does  the  public  then  caU  him  only  the 
^*  great  scholar  "  (Grossen  Gelehrten),  personify  him 
in  the  fague,  and  deny  that  he  has  soulful  feel- 
ing? 

— From  pure  ignorance! — It  is  quite  right  to 
personify  him  in  the  fugue,  as  this  form  has  in 
him  its  very  greatest  representative ;  but  there  is 


27 

more  of  soul  in  an  instrumental  cantilena  of  Bach 
than  in  any  Opera  aria  or  Church  Music  ever 
written.  Liszt's  saying,  that  ^Hhere  is  music 
which  comes  of  itself  to  us,"  and  other  music  'Hhat 
requires  us  to  corns  to  it,"  is,  in  the  latter  sense, 
as  regards  Bach,  most  appropriate.  A  few  come 
and  are  blest;  the  public  is  not  capable  of  doing 
so;  hence  this  so  fimdamentaUy  false  opinion  of 
him. 

— But  is  not  the  fugue  after  all,  a  dry,  scholas- 
tic formf! 

— With  all  others,  but  not  with  Bach.  He 
knew  how  to  express  all  imaginable  emotions  in 
this  form — if  we  take  the  "  Wohl-temperirte 
Clavier"  alone,  the  fugues  are  of  a  religious,  he- 
roic, melancholy,  majestic,  lamenting,  himiorous, 
pastoral  and  dramatic  character,  alike  in  one  thing 
only,  their  beauty/  Add  to  these  the  preludes 
whose  charm,  variety,  perfection  and  splendor  are 
all  entrancing.  That  the  same  being  who  could 
write  organ  compositions  of  such  astounding  gran- 
deur, could  compose  Gavottes,  Bourrees,  Gigues 


28 

of  such  charmingly  merrj  art,  Sarabandes  so 
melancholy,  little  Piano  pieces  of  such  witchery 
and  simplicity,  is  scarcely  to  be  believed.  And 
yet  I  have  mentioned  only  his  instrumental  works. 
When  we  add  to  these  his  gigantic  vocal  composi- 
tions, we  must  come  to  the  conclusion  that  a  time 
will  arrive  when  it  will  be  said  of  him  as  of 
Homer:  "TA^5  was  not  written  hy  one,  hut  &y 
manyy 

— And  what  remains  of  greatness  for  Handel? 

— Grandeur,  splendor,  mass-effect  and  effect  on 
the  masses  by  simplicity  of  outline  in  diatonic 
construction,  (pregnant  contrast  to  Bach's  Chro- 
matics), noble  realism,  and  geniality  in  general. 
Aphoristically  I  would  distinguish  the  two :  Bach^ 
a  Cathedral;  Handel,  a  Royal  Castle;  those  in 
the  Cathedral  speaking  low  and  timidly,  impressed 
by  the  power  of  the  structure  and  the  exalted 
magnitude  of  its  fundamental  idea.*)  In  the 
Royal  Castle  the  loud  exclamations  of  wondering 

*)  That  is  in  general  the  impression  of  the  hearer  in  listening 
to  the  performajice  of  a  work  by  Bach. 


29 

admiration,  and  the  feeling  of  humility  awaken- 
ed by  the  splendor,  brilliancy,  and  grandeur. 

— Then  Ave  must  admit  that  after  these  heroes  of 
the  art  nothing  more  of  the  grand  and  beautiful 
remains  to  be  created? 

— In  many  directions, — not  in  Church  music, 
in  Oratorio,  for  the  Organ.  Altogether  I  recog- 
nize in  them  the  point  of  climax  in  the  first  epoch 
of  the  art  of  music ;  that  is,  beginning,  according 
to  my  estimation,  with  Palestrina.  But  new  times 
demanding  new  expression  in  art  came  after  these 
two  5  new  lyric,  romantic,  dramatic,  tragic  and 
fantastic  styles  resound,  and  lastly,  nationality; 
these  all  represented  by  great  spirits — and  so  the 
art  of  music  still  makes  enormous  advancement. 
A  new  era  breaks  upon  us — the  Orchestra  sup- 
plants the  Organ;  the  Opera  the  Oratorio  and 
the  Church-cantata;  the  Sonata  supplants  the 
Suite;  the  Pianoforte  supplants  the  Clavecin, 
Clavicembalo,  Clavichord,  etc.  But,  although  the 
Opera  alone  ruled  the  public  for  almost  half  of  our 
century,  instrumental  music  developed  itself  more 


30 


and  more,  and  in  it  alone  we  recognize  advance- 
ment in  the  art  of  music,  and  that  in  Germany 
onlj.  On  the  other  hand,  Italy  and  France  de- 
voted themselves  exclusively  to  vocal  music.  For 
this  reason  I,  who  recognize  the  ideal  of  my  art  in 
instrumental  music  alone,  call  music  a  German  art. 

— We  have  cflme  now  to   Haydn  and  Mozart? 

— Not  yet.  There  is  one  still  to  be  mentioned 
who,  singularly  enough,  has  only  lately  begun  to 
be  acknowledged  as  he  deserves,  and  whom  I  re- 
gard as  the  Father  of  the  second  (instrumental) 
epoch  of  the  art  of  music,  and  who  has  done  most 
important  work  in  that  field  in  which  the  masters 
named  by  you  were  able  to  present  us  with  so 
much  of  the  beautiful — that  is,  Philipp  Emanuel 
Bach.  It  is  an  error  altogether,  in  music,  to  say 
he  created  the  Opera,  he  the  Symphony,  he  the 
String-quartette,  he  the  Sonata,  and  so  on.  Every- 
thing has  had  its  origin  in  many,  and  little  by 
little;  then  one  always  appears  who  accomplishes 
the  most  beautiful  in  that  particular  form,  and  at 
once  becomes  the  bearer  of  its  name. 


31 

— Is  Ph.  Em.  Bach  in  no-wise  the  legitimate 
successor  of  his  father  in  music !  ? 

— In  the  sense  of  geniality,  certainly  not;  but 
he  was  the  representative  of  a  new  time,  of  new 
ideas  in  the  art.  By  his  treatise  on  rendering 
and  on  the  styles  of  expression  in  Piano  playing 
alone,  he  opened  new  fields  to  the  composers  of 
this  more  and  more  prominent  instrument;  in 
his  compositions  also  we  find  the  germs  of 
aU  later  efibrts.  Haydn's  amiability  and  naivete, 
Mozart's  loving  tenderness,  even  Beethoven's 
dramatique  and  humor  are  indicated  only,  to  be 
sure,  but  none  the  less  is  the  germ  apparent,  filling 
in  this  manner  the  connecting  link  between  J.  S. 
Bach  and  Haydn,  and  in  so  doing,  drawing  music 
from  North  Germany  to  Vienna. 

— This  transmigration  of  music  for  a  half  cen- 
tury, and  its  return  to  North  Germany  is  quite 
remarkable.  Instrumental  music  develops  more 
and  more,  and  becomes  in  an  astonishing  manner 
the  pronounced  expression,  the  echo  or  re-echo 
of  the  age,  its  historical  events  and  its  state  of 


32 

culture.  It  is  scarcely  possible  to  imagine  a 
truer  picture  of  the  last  quarter  of  the  XVIII. 
century  until  1825  than  is  sung  in  the  works  of 
Haydn,  Mozart,  Beethoven,  and  Schubert,  espe- 
cially in  reference  to  Vienna.  This,  of  course,  is 
not  to  be  understood  as  literal  or  plastic  expres- 
sion, but  as  tone-allegorical,  relative,  and  affinitive. 
An  amiable,  genial,  merry,  naive,  careless  tone ; 
not  touching  in  the  slightest  degree  upon  the  weal 
and  woe  of  mankind,  or  the  spirit  of  the  world 
and  its  sorrows;  bringing  his  Maecenas  (Prince 
Esterhazy)  a  new  symphony  or  a  new  string- 
quartette  almost  every  Sunday,  that  good  old 
gentleman,  with  his  pockets  fuU  of  bon-bons  (in 
a  musical  sense)  for  the  children  (the  public), 
however  always  ready  to  give  the  badly-behaved  a 
sharp  reprimand;  the  good-natured  faithfid  subject 
and  functionary,  the  just  and  strict  teacher,  the 
good-souled  pastor,  the  distinguished  citizen  in 
powdered  perruque  and  cue,  in  a  long,  broad  frock, 
in  frill  and  lace,  in  buckled  shoes — all  that  I  hear 
in  the  music  of  Haydn.     I  hear  him  speak,  not 


33 

High-German,  but  in  Vienna  dialect.  Whenever 
I  play  or  hear  his  compositions,  I  see  his  public ; 
ladies  who,  on  account  of  the  prevailing  toilette, 
can  scarcely  move  themselves,  and  who  smile  and 
nod,  applauding  his  graceful  melodies  and  naive 
musical  merriment  with  their  fans.  Gentlemen 
who,  taking  a  pinch  of  snuff,  snap  the  box-lid 
down  with  the  words :  ''  Nay^  after  all,  there  is 
nothing  to  compare  with  our  good  old  Haydn  P^ 
("  Ya,  liber  unsern  alten  Haydn  geht  halt  dock 
nix!^^).  We  have  to  thank  him  for  very  much 
as  regards  instrumental  music.  He  brought  the 
symphonic  orchestra  almost  to  Beethoven's  matur- 
ity, stamped  the  string-quartette  as  one  of  the 
most  noble  and  most  beautiful  forms  of  music, 
gave  grace  and  elegance  to  pianoforte  composition 
and  technique,  and  enriched,  broadened  and 
systematized  instrumental  forms.  Yes,  be  is  a 
remarkable  personage  in  the  art,  but  withal,  the 
amiable,  smiling  (sometimes  sarcastic),  careless, 
contented  old  gentleman — in  his  '^  Creation,"  as 
well  as  in  his  "Seasons,"  in  his  Symphonies  as 


34 

well  as  in  his  Quartettes,  in  his  Sonatas  as  well 
as  in  his  Pianoforte  pieces — in  short,  in  his  whole 
musical  creation. 

— And  Mozart  ? 

— Just  as  Haydn,  as  the  old  Haydn,  becomes  a 
type,  so  Mozart,  as  the  young  Mozart,  may  be 
called  a  type.  Although  as  to  his  age  and  sur- 
roundings, standing  on  the  same  level  of  culture 
with  Haydn,  he  is  young,  sincere,  tender  in 
everything  |  the  journeys  of  his  childhood  also 
had  an  influence  on  his  musical  thoughts  and 
feeling. — In  consequence  the  Opera  became  his 
chief  work,  but  his  entire  Ego  he  gives  us  in  his 
instrumental  works,  and  there  I  hear  him  too,  like 
Haydn,  speak  the  Vienna  dialect.  Helios  of 
music  I  would  call  him  !  He  has  illuminated  all 
forms  of  music  with  his  splendor,  on  one  and  all 
impressed  this  stamp  of  the  god-like.  We  are  at  a 
loss  which  to  admire  most  in  him,  his  melody  or 
his  technic,  his  crystal  clearness  or  the  richness 
of  his  invention.  The  symphony  in  G  minor 
(this  unicum  of  symphonic  lyric),  the  last  move- 


35 

ment  of  the  "Jupiter"  Symphony  (this  unicum 
in  symphonic  technic),  the  overtures  to  the  "Zau- 
berflote,"  or  to  "Figaro's  Hochzeit"  (these  uni- 
ca  of  the  merry,  the  fresh,  the  god-like),  the 
Requiem  (this  unicum  of  sweet  tone-in-sorrow), 
the  Pianoforte  Fantasias,  the  String  Quintette  in 
G  minor;  in  the  latter  it  is  not  uninteresting  to 
see  verified  how  greatly  wealth  of  melody  out- 
weighs everything  else  in  music. — We  demand 
generally,  in  quartette  style,  a  polyphonic  treat- 
ment of  the  voices;  here  however,  homophony 
reigns,  the  very  simplest  accompaniment  to  every 
theme  that  enters — and  we  revel  in  the  enjoy- 
ment of  this  divine  melodie !  and  at  last,  besides 
all  these,  the  wonderful  instrumental  works,  the 
wonderful  operas  !  Gluck,  it  is  true,  had  achieved 
great  things  in  the  opera  before  him ;  yes,  opened 
new  paths — but  in  comparison  with  Mozart  he  is, 
so  to  say,  of  stone. — Besides,  Mozart  has  the 
merit  of  having  removed  the  opera  from  the  icy 
pathos  of  mythology  into  real  life,  into  the  purely 
human,    and   from   the   Italian   to   the    German 


36 

language,  and  thereby  to  a  national  path. — The 
most  remarkable  feature  of  his  operas  is  the 
musical  characteristic  he  has  given  to  every 
figure,  so  that  each  acting  personage  has  become 
an  immortal  type. — It  is  true  that  the  happy 
choice  of  material  and  its  excellent  scenic  treat- 
ment was  of  great  assistance  in  this. 

— The  text  to  the  "Magic-Flute"  is  generally 
considered  childish  and  ludicrous!? 

— I  hold  a  contrary  opinion — even  if  it  were 
only  on  account  of  the  variety  it  offers  to  the 
musician.  Pathetic,  fantastic,  lyric,  comic,  naive, 
romantic,  dramatic,  tragic,  yes,  it  would  be  hard 
to  find  an  expression  that  is  wanting  in  it.  The 
case  is  the  same  in  Don  Juan.  It  is  evident  the 
genius  of  a  Mozart  was  required  to  reproduce  it  all 
musically,  as  he  has  done;  but  such  Opera  texts 
might  incite  less  genial  composers  to  interesting 
work. 

— But  that  which  he  lias  made,  he  alone  could 
make ! 

— Yes,    a  god-like   creation — all  flooded  with 


37 

light.  In  hearing  Mozart  I  always  wish  to  ex- 
claim: "Eternal  sunshine  in  music,  thy  name  is 
Mozart!" 

— It  is  incomprehensible  to  me,  how  you,  while 
giving  him  such  exhalted  admiration,  still  do  not 
give  him  the  highest  recognition. 

— Mankind  thirsts  for  a  storm — it  feels  that  it 
may  become  dry  and  parched  in  the  Eternal 
Haydn-Mozart  sunshine;  it  wishes  to  express 
itself  earnestly,  it  longs  for  action,  it  becomes  dra- 
matic, the  French  revolution  breaks  forth — 
Beethoven  appears! 

— But  you  do  not  mean  to  say  that  Beethoven 
is  the  musical  reverberation  of  the  French  Revo- 
lution! 

— Not  the  Guillotine  J  of  course,  but  at  all  events 
of  that  great  drama;  in  no-wise  history  set  to 
music,  but  the  tragedy  echoing  in  music  which  is 
called  "Liberty,  Equality,  Fraternity!" 

— He  is,  however,  the  positive  continuation  of 
the  Haydn  and  Mozart  period,  at  least  in  the 
works  of  his  first  period. 


38 

— The  forms  in  his  first  period  are  the  forms 
then  reigning,  but  the  line  of  thought  is,  even  in 
the  works  of  his  youth,  a  wholly  different  one. 
The  last  movement  in  his  first  Pianoforte  Sonata 
(F  minor),  more  especially  in  the  second  theme, 
is  already  a  new  world  of  emotion,  expression, 
pianoforte  effect,  and  even  pianoforte  technic.  So 
too,  the  Adagio  in  the  second  Sonata  (A  major), 
the  Adagio  in  the  first  String-Quartette  (F  major), 
and  so  on.  And  already  the  treatment  of  the  in- 
struments in  his  first  three  Trios  is  entirely  differ- 
ent from  that  used  until  then.  In  the  works  of 
his  first  period  altogether,  as  I  have  said,  we  re- 
cognize only  the  formulae  of  the  earlier  composers; 
for,  although  the  garb  still  remains  the  same  for 
a  time,  we  hear  even  in  these  works,  that  natural 
hair  will  soon  take  the  place  of  the  powdered  per- 
ruque  and  cue;  that  boots,  instead  of  buckled 
shoes,  wiU  change  the  gait  of  the  man  (in  music, 
too);  that  the  coat,  instead  of  the  broad  frock 
with  the  steel  buttons,  will  give  him  another  bear- 
ing,   and   even   these   works   resound   with    the 


39 

loving  tone  (as  in  Haydn  and  Mozart)  the  soulful 
tone  (not  apparent  in  the  former),  and  very  soon 
after  with  the  aesthetic  (as  in  them),  the  ethic 
(ia  them  wanting),  and  we  become  aware  that 
he  supplants  the  Menuet  with  the  Scherzo,  and 
so  stamps  his  works  with  a  more  virile  and 
earnest  character;  that  through  him  instrimiental 
music  will  be  capable  of  expressing  the  dramatic 
even  to  the  tragic,  that  humor  may  rise  to  irony, 
that  music  in  general  has  acquired  an  entirely 
new  art  of  expression.  His  greatness  in  the 
Adagio  is  astounding,  from  the  innermost 
lyric  to  the  metaphysical;  yes,  he  attains  to  the 
mystical  in  this  art  of  expression.  But  he  is  en- 
tirely imapproached  in  his  Scherzos  (some  of 
them  I  would  compare  with  the  jester  in  ''King 
Lear.")  Smiling,  laughing,  merry-making,  not 
seldom  bitterness,  irony,  effervescence,  in  short, 
a  world  of  psychological  expression  is  heard  in 
them.  Emanating  not  from  a  human  being,  but 
as  from  an  invisible  Titan,  who  now  rejoices 
over  humanity,  now  is  offended;  now  makes  him- 


40 

self  merry  over  them  and  again  weeps — enough, 
wholly  incommensurable! 

— Well,  it  will  be  difficult  to  come  into  contra- 
diction with  you  in  regard  to  Beethoven,  because 
all  equally  admire  him. 

— And  yet  I  entertain  some  difference  of 
opinion  in  regard  to  him  which  I  cannot  refrain 
from  expressing.  Thus,  for  example,  I  consider 
"Fidelio"  the  greatest  opera  in  existence  to-day, 
because  it  is  the  true  music  drama  in  every  par- 
ticular ;  because,  with  all  the  reality  of  the  musical 
characteristic,  there  is  always  the  most  beautiful 
melody;  because,  notwithstanding  all  interest  in 
the  orchestra,  the  latter  does  not  speak  for  the 
acting  persons  upon  the  stage,  but  lets  them 
speak  for  themselves;  because  every  tone  of  it 
comes  from  the  deepest  and  truest  of  the  soul  and 
must  reach  the  soul  of  the  hearer — and  stiU  it  is 
the  generally  accepted  opinion  that  Beethoven 
could  not  be  an  opera  composer.  I  do  not  regard 
his  "Missa  solemnis'^  as  one  of  his  greatest 
creations,  and  it  is  generally  regarded  as  such. 


41 

— May  I  ask  why  it  does  not  find  grace  ia 
your  eyes! 

— Because,  aside^from  the  purely  musical  in  it, 
with  which  in  many  ways  I  do  not  sympathize,  I 
hear  in  the  whole  composition  a  being  who  speaks 
with  God,  disputes  with  Him,  but  does  not  pray 
to  Him  nor  adore  Him  as  he  has  done  so  beauti- 
fully in  his  "  Geistliche  Lieder"  (''Spiritual 
songs").  I  do  not  either  share  the  opinion  that 
the  use  of  the  vocal  in  the  last  movement  of  the 
Ninth  Symphony  was  a  desire  on  his  part  for  a 
culmination  of  the  musical  expression  in  a  tech- 
nical sense  for  the  symphony  in  general — but  on 
the  contrary,  that  after  the  "  unutterable  "  of  the 
first  three  movements  he  intended  to  have  some- 
thing utterable,  hence  the  last  movement,  with 
addition  of  the  vocal  (with  words). — I  do  not 
believe  that  this  last  movement  is  intended  as 
the  Ode  to  Joy  but  the  Ode  to  Freedom. — It  is 
said  that  Schiller  was  moved  by  the  censure  he 
received,  to  write  Freude  instead  of  Freiheit 
(joy   instead    of  freedom),   and  that   Beethoven. 


42 

knew  this — I  believe  it,  most  decidedly. — Joy  is 
not  acquired,  it  comes,  and  it  is  there ;  but  free- 
dom must  be  won — hence  the  theme  begins 
pianissimo  in  the  Bassi,  goes  through  many- 
variations,  to  ring  out  finally  in  a  triumphant 
fortissimo — and  Freedom  too  is  a  very  serious 
thing,  hence  also  the  earnest  character  of  the 
theme.  " Seid  umschlungen  Millionen "  ("Be 
embraced  ye  millions")  is  also  not  reconcilable 
with  joy,  since  joy  is  of  a  more  individual 
character  and  cannot  embrace  all  mankind — and 
in  the  same  way,  many  other  things. 

— So  you  also  do  not  share  the  opinion  that 
Beethoven  would  have  written  many  things  differ- 
ently and  others  not  at  all  if  he  had  not  become 
deaf? 

— Not  in  the  slightest  degree. — That  which 
"we  call  his  third  period  was  the  period  of  his 
deafness — and  what  would  music  be  without  this 
third  period  ?  The  last  Pianoforte  Sonatas,  the 
last  String  Quartettes,  the  Ninth  Symphony  and 
others  were  possible  only  because  of  his  deafness. 


43 

— This  absolute  concentration,  this  being  trans- 
ported into  another  world,  this  tone-full  soul,  this 
lament  never  heard  before,  this  bound  Prome- 
theus, this  soaring  above  everything  earthly,  this 
tragic  not  even  approximately  present  in  any 
other  opera ;  all  that  could  only  find  means  to  ex- 
press itself  because  of  his  deafness.  He  had  indeed 
written  the  most  beautiful,  yes  unrivalled  works 
before  his  deafness;  for  example,  what  is  the 
" Hollen-scene "  of  Gluck's  ' 'Orpheus"  in  compari- 
son with  the  second  movement  of  his  G-major 
Piano  Concerto  ?  What  any  Tragedy  (Hamlet 
and  King  Lear  possibly  excepted)  in  comparison 
with  the  second  movement  of  his  D-major  Trio  ? 
— What  is  the  whole  Drama  in  comparison  with 
the  ''  Coriolanus  Overture  "  ? 

— But  yet  the  most  exalted,  the  most  wondrous, 
the  most  inconceivable,  was  not  written  until  after 
his  deafness.  As  the  seer  may  be  imagined  blind 
that  is,  blind  to  all  his  surroundings,  and  seeing 
with  the  eyes  of  the  soid,  so  the  hearer  may  be 
imagined  deaf,  deaf  to  all  his  surroundings  and 


44 

hearing  with  the  hearing  of  the  soul.  O  deafness 
of  Beethoven,  what  unspeakable  sorrow  for  him- 
self, and  what  unspeakable  joy  for  art  and  for 
humanity ! 

— You  did  right  to  warn  me  of  your  paradoxes. 
— If  only  as  much  truth  as  is  contained  in  every 
paradox  is  to  be  found  in  this  opinion  of  mine  I 
am  happy  to  have  felt  so. 

— So  then  Beethoven  has  expressed  the  Alpha 
and  Omega  in  music  f 

— Not  quite. — He  has  taken  us  with  him  in 
his  flight  to  the  stars,  but  from  below  a  song  is 
resounding:  "O  come  hither,  the  earth  too  is  so 
beautiful !  "     This  song  Schubert  sings  to  us. 

— You  are  contradicting  yourself  there,  he  was 
vocal  composer jpar  excellence! 

— Not  in  the  pretentious  sense  of  the  opera 
(in  which  he  achieved  but  little),  but  in  the  sense 
of  the  song,  the  one  and  only  legitimate  vocal 
music  besides  church  music — and  in  addition  he 
has  written  so  much  and  such  wondrous  instru- 
mental  music !      I   regard    Beethoven's    second 


45 

epoch  as  the  point  of  culmination  in  the  art  of 
music,  and  Schubert  as  the  father  of  the  third 
epoch.  Yes,  this  Schubert  is  a  remarkable  pres- 
ence in  music !  While  in  the  case  of  all  others 
(even  the  greatest)  we  find  a  preparatory  fore- 
runner, he  appears  as  developed  of  himself  (or 
even  if  he  had  predecessors  they  are  entirely 
unknown  to  us),  and  that  too  in  vocal  as  in 
instrumental  music.  He  creates  a  new  lyric, 
the  lyric-romantic  in  music,  before  him  the  song 
was  either  the  naive  Couplet  or  the  Ballade,  stiff, 
dry,  with  recitatives,  with  shallow  cantilena, 
scholastic  form,  meaningless  accompaniment,  etc. 
— He  creates  the  emotional  song,  which  comes 
from  the  heart  and  penetrates  to  the  heart — gives 
the  musical  poem  to  the  poetic  one;  the  melody 
that  declares  the  words  ;  he  creates  a  form  of  art 
in  which  very  much  that  is  beautiful  has  been 
done  after  him,  but  in  which  he  still  stands  un- 
rivalled. What  can  rival  the  "  Winterreise," 
the  "Schwanengesang,"  the  "  MiiUerlieder,"  and 
so  many  others  ?     Besides  these  he  created  the 


46 

little  piano-pieces — and  there  he  is  too  most  inex- 
plicable !  Living  at  the  same  time  and  in  the 
same  citj  with  Beethoven  and  so  entirely  unin- 
fluenced in  his  musical  creation — in  his  symphony 
as  well  as  his  chamber  music;  and  also  in  his 
piano  music. — Compare  Beethoven's  "  Bagatel- 
len"  alone  with  Schubert's  ''Moments  musicals," 
or  with  his  "Impromptus." — Yes,  he  stands  alone 
in  his  song,  as  in  his  little  piano-pieces,  in  his 
"Rhapsody  Hongroise"  for  four  hands,  in  his 
Marches  for  four  hands,  his  Waltzes  and  Fantasias, 
in  short,  in  all  that  he  has  created.  In  one  form 
alone  he  does  not  attain  the  highest  altitude,  that 
is  the  Sonata,  but  (1st)  Beethoven  had  really  said 
the  last  word  in  this  form,  and  (2d)  to  the  pro- 
nounced lyric-romantic  character  of  his  creation 
this  epic  form  was  not  natural. 

— He  is  generally  accused  of  want  of  form. 

— His  peculiarity  of  inserting  whole  songs 
(without  words)  into  his  larger  works  {heavenli/ 
themes  with  earthly  interludes  and  reproduction), 
in  extending  them  to  great  lengths  (especially  to 


47 

be  felt  in  his  Pianoforte  Sonatas  with  exception 
of  two  or  three)  Schumann  has  so  rightly  called 
^^  heavenly  lengths." 

— Can  he  and  Beethoven  really  have  been  sa 
estranged  I 

— They  were  acquainted,  but  there  was  no 
mutual  esteem ;  the  latter  is  known  only  of 
Schubert.  Beethoven  was  either  entirely  locked 
up  ^^-ithin  himself  (toward  musicians  often  rude 
and  forbidding,  besides  being  hard  of  access  on 
account  of  his  deafness),  or  moved  in  the  highest 
circles  of  society  (the  Arch-Duke  Rudolf  was  his 
pupil,  friend  and  patron).  Schubert  was  a  genuine 
Viennese-child-of-the-people.  The  Folks'-gar- 
den,  the  street,  the  cafe,  the  gipsies,  his  world; 
the  Vienna  dialect  (as  with  Hayden  and  Mozart) 
his  language.  His  songs  were  seldom  sung  in 
public,  mostly  only  in  the  circle  of  his  friends ; 
the  same  in  regard  to  his  instrumental  music,  and 
his  C-major  Symphony  he  himself  never  heard ! 
So  these  two  geniuses  lived  at  the  same  time 
and    in    the    same    city,    and   remained    almost 


48 

unknown  to  each  other.  A  sad  evidence  that 
music  even  at  that  time  was  not  the  common 
property  of  the  public  (opera  excepted),  but  only 
A  pastime  for  certain  circles  ! 

— He  died  joung? 

— And  did  not  gain  recognition,  even  in  his 
songs,  unto  some  time  after  his  death. — Bach  has 
only  been  rescued  from  obscurity  since  the  year 
1830,  and  Beethoven's  third  period  was  for  the 
greater  half  of  our  century  designated,  even 
by  musicians,  as  a  sickly,  yet  crazed  period. 

— Schubert's  enormous  creation  in  so  short  a 
life  is  incomprehensible  to  me. 

— ^'He  sang  as  the  birds  sing"  always  and 
without  ceasing,  from  a  full  heart,  a  fuU  throat, 
gave  himself  as  he  was,  and  polished  his  works  but 
slightly. 

— That  you  do  not  intend  to  reckon  as  a  merit? 

— God  created  woman;  certainly  the  most 
beautiful  of  his  creations,  but  full  of  faults. — He 
did  not  polish  them  away,  being  convinced  that 
all  that  was  faulty  in  her  would  be  out-weighed 


49 

by  lier  charms — so  Schubert  in  his  compositions; 
his  melody  out-weighs  all  deficiency,  if  deficiency 
there  be.  One  of  his  most  sympathetic  attributes 
is  his  naturalness — how  harmlessly  by  the  side  of 
the  highest  and  most  beautiful  he  exhibits  the 
"Kreuzfidelen  Lerchenfelder  Wiener"  in  the  last 
movement  of  the  C-major  String  Quintette,  in  the 
last  movement  of  the  D-major  Pianoforte  Sonata, 
in  the  last  movement  of  the  G-major  Fantasia, 
and  so  forth,  and  withal  the  manifoldness  and 
versatility  of  his  creation. — And  then  his  songs, 
*^Die  Krdhe,^^  ^'Der  Doppelgdnger"  ^^Du  hist  die 
JRuh,'^  "Der  Atlas/'  ^' Aufenthalt,"  "Der  Erl- 
Tconig/'  his  Walzes — then  his  String  Quartettes  in 
A-  and  D-minor,  his  Hungarian  Rhapsody — then 
his  ^^  Moments  musicals/'  the  Symphony  in  C- 
major — no — again,  and  a  thousand  times  over 
and  over,  Bach,  Beethoven  and  Schubert  occupy 
the  highest  pinnacles  in  music! 

— As  yet  you  have  not  explained  to  me  how 
Chopin  and  Glinka  hold  the  right  to  be  classed 
with  these. 


50 

— Vienna  has  sung  its  song. — ^Music  seeks  its 
previous  home,  North  Germany. 

— You  mean  German  music,  as  Mehul,  Gretry, 
Cherubini,  Spontini,  Rossini  and  others,  did  not 
live  in  Germany. 

— They  are  composers  of  vocal  music  exclu- 
sively, hence  for  me,  not  standard  hearers  of  the 
art  of  music. 

— Who  then  in  your  opinion  is  the  continuation 
of  the  chain  ? 

— Weber. 

— Would  you,  if  he  had  not  -written  his  operas, 
regard  him  too  as  a  standard-bearer  of  the  art  f 

— ^Not  in  the  full  significance  of  the  word;  I 
could  not  however  pass  .him  by — as  his  pianoforte 
compositions,  much  that  is  new  in  his  treatment 
of  the  orchestra,  and  especially  his  overtures, 
stamp  him  as  such. — Still,  you  are  quite  right  in 
regarding  his  operas  as  his  greatest  works. — It  is 
remarkable  how  decidedly  he  has  become  a  type 
in  all  the  styles  in  which  he  created.  Every- 
thing that  he  did  has  been  imitated — the  Folk- 


51 

tone  (Freiscliutz),  the  Romantic-fantastic  (Obe- 
ron),  the  Lyric-romantic  (Euryanthe),  his  Arias, 
his  Hunting  Choruses,  his  Overtures  and  his 
Pianoforte  compositions  (Concertstiicke,  etc.). 
Concerning  his  Pianoforte  Sonatas,  although  they 
do  not  by  any  means  attain  the  height  of  inven- 
tion, the  depth  of  conception,  the  earnest  emotion, 
the  artistic  standard  of  the  Beethoven  Sonatas, 
still  in  their  art  they  are  highly  valuable  com- 
positions. For  the  pianoforte  he  is,  as  it  were, 
Virtuoso-Composer. 

— What  do  you  mean  by  that  ? 

— Compositions,  in  which  the  "passage"  ap- 
pears as  personage — where  brilliancy  and  effect 
occupy  the  foregrovmd  even  at  the  expense  of  the 
musical  contents — however,  when  we  remember 
to  what  shallowness  this  style  was  brought  after 
him,  we  can  look  upon  his  work  with  respect. 

— Do  you  care  so  little  for  opera  in  general 
that  you  do  not  consider  it  worth  while  to  mention 
its  progress  side  by  side  with  the  progress  of 
instrumental  music  ? 


52 

— If  I  wished  to  illustrate  to  you  only  my  own 
sympathies  as  regards  the  progress  of  our  art,  I 
should  be  obliged  now  to  pass  over  at  once  to 
Mendelssohn. — You  demand  my  opinion  of  every- 
thing, however,  and  so  we  will  first  explore  two 
fields,  which  have  been  prodigiously  cultivated, 
and  which  more  than  everything  mentioned  here- 
tofore have  entertained  and  delighted  the  public, 
these  are :  the  Opera,  in  vocal  music,  Virtuosityj 
in  instrumental  music. 

— With  the  Opera  you  will  probably  begin  in 
Italy? 

— Both  have  their  beginning  there, — there  the 
Opera  (bufFa  and  seria)  bloomed  and  flourished, 
developing  very  quickly  and  to  a  high  degree, 
and  in  such  a  manner,  that,  with  the  exception 
of  France,  where  with  Lulli  it  appears  at  once  in 
the  French  language,  it  was  adopted  in  the 
Italian  language,  over  the  whole  world  and 
through  the  half  of  the  present  century. 

— The  reason  for  this  is  probably  that  the 
Italian  climate  and  language  have  helped  to  give 


53 

us  the  best  singers.  To  this  circumstance  Italy, 
however,  is  also  indebted  for  the  ever  increasing 
decline  in  the  art  of  creation  among  its  composers. 
They  were  obliged  to  write  beautiful  Cantilenas, 
grand  coloratur-arias,  whether  allowable  by  the 
subject  of  the  drama  or  not,  in  order  to  give  the 
singer  opportunity  to  show  his  skill — and  hence 
they  were  obliged  to  give  the  orchestra  only  an  in- 
significant accompanying  role.  For  these  reasons, 
to  the  earnest  musician,  Italian  Opera  is  to-day 
synonymous  with  insignificant  and  inartistic. 
— From  an  aesthetic  standpoint  this  is  altogether 
justifiable,  from  a  purely  musical  standpoint,  not 
entirely  so,  for  a  beautiful  Cantilena  is  after  all, 
to  be  prized,  and  there  are  many  to  be  found  in 
Italian  Opera. — Italian  Opera  in  its  prime,  is  the 
period  before  Mozart,  the  number  of  its  composers 
is  legion,  and  they  rank  as  classic  there  in  this 
style. — Of  the  Mozart  and  after-Mozart  periods 
the  most  important  are:  Salieri,  Cimarosa,  Paesi- 
ello,  Paer,  and  later  Kossini — his  ^'  Barbier  von 
Sevilla"  in  freshness,  melody,  humor,  character- 


54 

istic,  truly  a  master  work — his  "Comte  D'Ory" 
also  his  "William  Tell,"  very  remarkable  in  color 
and  drama  as  well  as  in  orchestral  treatment, 
notably  in  the  overture  which  might  be  called  a 
work  of  art  if  he  had  substituted  something  more 
appropriate  for  the  last  allegro!  In  his  other 
operas  also  we  find  the  trivial  and  inartistic  side 
by  side  with  much  that  is  excellent.  It  is  a  not 
uninteresting  fact  that  he,  as  well  as  the  Italian 
composers  before  and  after  him,  preserved  a  more 
noble  tone,  and  gave  the  orchestra  a  more  inter- 
esting treatment  in  the  operas  they  wrote  for 
the  French  Stage,  in  the  French  language,  than 
in  the  operas  written  for  Italy  in  the  Italian 
language.  Rossini  ruled  the  entire  European 
public  for  a  long  time — until  the  appearance  of 
Bellini  and  shortly  after  that  of  Donizetti,  who,  the 
first  by  his  sweet  melody,  the  second  by  his 
temperament  and  in  some  measure  modern  drama- 
tic tendency,  crowded  his  works,  with  the  exception 
of  two  or  three  operas,  from  the  repertoire.  The 
public  and  the  artists  revelled  in  these  two  com- 


55 

posers,  and  the  French  Grand  Opera  (Meyerbeer) 
was  their  only  rival — and  when  one,  as  I,  has 
heard  these  Operas  sung  by  Rubini,  Tamburini, 
Lablache,  by  Sontag,  Grisi,  Persiani,  Tadolini,  and 
Jenny  Lind,  he  cannot  help  revelling  in  them, 
which  I  consequently  did  in  my  youth,  and 
thoroughly. 

— And  has  Italy  done  nothing  in  instrumental 
music  ? 

— We  have  already  spoken  of  CoreUi  and  D. 
Scarlatti,  after  these  nothing  worthy  of  mention 
was  created. — Clementi,  of  great  significance  in 
virtuosity  and  in  a  pedagogic  sense;  but  of  him 
later. — After  these,  Boccherini  alone  remains  to 
be  noticed,  who  has  written  much  chamber  music 
(Quintettes  for  stringed  instruments),  but  which 
in  no  way  approaches  that  of  Haydn.  Of  the 
most  importance  is  that  which  was  done  for  and 
on  the  violin ;  after  Corelli — Nardini,  Tartini, 
Viotti,  and  especially  Paganini  made  this  instru- 
ment the  most  important  musically  after  the 
Piano. 


56 

— France  comes  now  on  the  list,  since  in  Italy, 
France  and  Germany  only,  the  art  of  music  has 
made  a  progress  worthy  of  mention,  while  in  the 
other  countries  its  progress  has  been  of  little  or  no 
importance. 

— Until  1830  indeed;  but  from  that  time  on 
lights  of  various  magnitude  arise  in  every  corner 
and  end  of  Europe  ;  music  becomes  more  and  more 
a  universal  possession,  and  almost  every  country 
has  more  or  less  renowned  representatives  of  this 
art.  ♦ 

— Schools,  however,  developed  only  in  these 
three  countries? 

— From  Rameau  until  Berlioz,  with  few  excep- 
tions, it  was  the  Opera,  solely  and  alone,  that 
was  cultivated  in  France. — The  French  culti- 
vated almost  exclusively  the  genre  of  Comic 
Opera,  that  is,  opera  with  dialogue. — Foreigners 
mostly  who,  however,  are  regarded  by  the 
French  as  representatives  of  the  French  school 
(of  course  only  those  who  have  written  in  the 
French  language)  cultivated  the  so-called  Grand 


57 

Opera,  that  is,  opera  with  recitative. — They  call 
LuUi,  Cherubini,  Spontini,  Rossini  (Italians), 
Gluck,  Herold,  Meyerbeer  (Germans)  "  Chefs  de 
Vecole  Franqaise.^^ — The  English  also  call  Handel 
an  English  composer,  because  he  wrote  his 
Oratorios  in  the  English  language. — I  can»ot  say 
that  this  kind  of  patriotism  displeases  me. 

— There  is  at  least  more  pride  in  that  than  in 
disowning  one  born  and  bred  in  a  country  and 
avowing  its  religion,  because  his  name  is  a 
foreign  one.  The  ^^  Opera  Comique^^  is,  properly 
speaking,  the  type  of  French  music — and  in  it 
they  have  created  most  charmingly — Oretry, 
Mehul,  Monsigny,  Dalayrac,  Isouard,  Berton, 
Boieldieu,  Adam,  Auber,  Grisar,  Masse,  Bizet, 
Delibes,  and  others,  deserve  not  only  the  respect  of 
their  nation,  but  the  respect  of  all  nations. — Many 
of  these  have  also  written  serious  Operas — Mehul 
(whose  ^^ Joseph  in  Egypf^  is  the  equal  of  the 
best  in  this  style),  Auber,  "Z)^e  Stmnme  von 
Portici"  and  others,  but  still  the  character  of 
their   creations    in    general   remains    the    Opera 


58 

Comique.  It  is  worthy  of  mention  that  with 
them  the  treatment  of  the  orchestia  is  much 
more  interesting  than  with  the  Italian  composers. 
— ^Lively  rhythm,  ingenious,  piquant ;  refinement, 
often  excellence,  stamp  the  French  in  music  so 
decidedly  that  they,  even  in  their  symphonic 
creation  of  to-day,  are  the  principal  mark  of  dis- 
tinction.— What  they  now-a-days  have  completely 
lost  is  the  graceful,  simple,  charming  "  Chanson/' 
and  that  is  a  pity!  They  have  become  '^phra- 
seurs"  in  music  (in  the  Comic  Opera  also).  And 
indeed  the  other  nations  are  not  far  behind  them 
in  this,  it  seems  to  be  the  general  evil  of  our 
time! 

— Since  the  time  of  the  Second  Empire,  the 
"Opera  Comique,"  this  charming,  witty,  merry, 
interesting  genre,  has  been  thrown  into  the  shade 
by  the  "Operetta,"  in  which  the  charming  has 
become  frivolous;  the  witty,  silly;  the  merry, 
vulgar;  a  sort  of  Comic- Journal  set  to  music  a  la 
'^Journal pour  rire.'^  The  (by-the-way)  talented 
inventor    of  this  genre   was    Offenbach — he  had 


59 

many  imitators  (Herve,  Lecocq,  Audran,  and 
others)  for  anything  of  that  kind  has  disciples ! 
This  style  seems  lately  to  be  losing  ground  in 
France,  and  Germany  intends  evidently  to  elevate 
it  again  to  the  comic  opera  in  the  earlier  form. — 
The  serious  (Grand)  Opera  was,  as  already  men- 
tioned, mostly  in  the  hands  of  foreign  composers, 
who,  however,  were  obliged  to  conform  to  the 
demands  of  the  French  public — compose  in  the 
French  language,  directing  their  attention  chiefly 
to  declamation — the  latter  especially  gave  the 
typical  character  to  the  French  Grand  Opera. — 
Lulli,  and  later  Gluck,  striving  to  stem  the 
inbreaking  Italianism,  had  constructed  a  whole 
system  in  this  direction — Cherubini  and  Spon- 
tini  also  (this  musical  echo  of  the  Napoleon 
Militarismas)  remained  true  to  it. — Later  on  the 
public  demanded  in  the  Grand  Opera,  besides 
this,  an  interesting,  almost  symphonic  orchestra, 
interesting  treatment  of  the  subject  (especiaUy  in 
wealth  of  situation)  unqualified  addition  of  the 
ballet   and    a  grand   setting  (the   Grand  Opera 


60 

would  not  allow  of  less  than  five  acts).  Meyer- 
beer more  than  any  other  composer  fulfilled  these 
demands,  and  has  thus  become  the  type  of  the 
French  Grand  Opera.  This  composer  is  over- 
valued  in  France  and  in  Germany  under-valued 
by  earnest  critics.  He  has  indeed  many  sins  on  hi& 
artist  conscience:  sickly  vanity,  longing  for  im- 
mediate success,  want  of  strict  self-criticism,  pan- 
dering to  the  bad  taste  of  an  unmusical  public,  glosa 
in  musical  characteristic — but  he  has  two  very 
great  qualities :  Theatre-blood,  highly  distin- 
guished orchestral  treatment,  a  highly  artistic 
handling  of  the  massive,  powerful  dramatic  situa- 
tion, virtuosi  technic,  etc. — Many  musicians  who 
abuse  him  would  no  doubt  be  very  glad  if  they 
were  able  to  imitate  him. — "Robert  der  Teufel,'^ 
"Der  Prophet,"  and  especially  ''Die  Hugenotten/^ 
are  at  any  rate  opera  compositions  of  first  rank ! 
Next  to  him,  it  is  Halevy  who  is  counted  the 
most  important  in  France,  and  his  '' Jiidin''  is  a 
work  very  well  worthy  of  note.  From  here  on 
(with  the  exception  of  Rossini,   Donizetti,  and 


61 

Verdi,  whose  several  operas  were  given  there), 
the  Grrand  Opera  passes  entirely  into  the  posses- 
sion of  French  composers:  Thomas,  Gounod, 
Saint-Saens,  Massenet,  Reyer,  and  others. 

— And  the  instrumental  music? 

— Begins  with  Berlioz,  and  is  only  developing 
itself  earnestly  at  the  present  day. 

— So  now  we  must  turn  with  the  opera  question 
to  Grermany? 

— The  beginnings  of  opera  in  the  German 
language,  in  the  first  part  of  the  XVIII.  century, 
in  Hamburg,  have  only  a  historical,  yes,  almost 
a  mere  archaeological  interest.  There  too  it  is 
the  comic  opera  alone  which  figures  in  its  national 
language,  the  serious  opera  in  the  whole  of  Ger- 
many was  presented  in  the  Italian  language. 
The  German  serious  Opera  is,  with  few  excep- 
tions (Kayser,  Fuchs,  Mattheson,  Hasse,  Hiller), 
a  child  of  the  after-Mozart  time,  and  flourished 
for  some  time  as  Vaudeville,  Minstrelsy  (Sing- 
spiel),  that  is,  Avith  spoken  dialogue.  We  touch 
upon  a  circumstance  here  that  to  me  is  always  a 


62 


tender  spot  in  our  art. — If  the  Opera  is  able  to 
be,  in  any  case,  a  possible  form  of  art,  it  •could 
be  so  only  in  case  we  voluntarily  accept  a  con- 
ventional falsehood  to  speak  what  is  sung — if, 
however,  it  be  sung,  then  spoken,  then  sung 
again,  then  spoken  again,  how  is  an  illusion  con- 
ceivable !  Even  in  a  French  Vaudeville  (when, 
after  a  witty  dialogue  or  interesting  scene)  the 
(incidental)  ''Bon  jour,  Madame,  comment  vous 
portez  vous"  is  given  in  a  singing  voice,  it  is  to 
me  unbearable ;  but  in  an  earnest,  dramatic,  lyric 
or  fantastic  piece  (Opera!)  the  melo-dramatic  in 
a  French  scene  of  terror,  or  in  a  poisoning  scene 
or  a  midnight  raid,  etc.,  where  the  violins,  con 
sordini^  begin  the  tremolo  is  to  me  more  accepta- 
ble— and  when  I  remember  that  Mozart  wrote 
his  "Magic  Flute,"  Beethoven  his  '^Fidelio," 
Weber  his  "Freischiitz,"  with  a  spoken  dialogue 
it  makes  me  entirely  unhappy! 

— Are  you  disturbed  by  the  mixture  of  poetry 
and  prose  in  Shakespeare's  plays  also! 

— There   it   is    different    persons   who    speak 


63 

differently — the  unimportant  persons  speak  in 
prose — the  important  in  poetry — but  in  the  Opera, 
the  person  who  has  just  sung  begins  to  speak,  or 
one  who  has  been  speaking  begins  to  sing. — O 
ruling  taste,  a  frightful  thing  in  art! 

— I  did  not  know  that  in  Italy  Operas  with 
spoken  dialogue  existed. 

— For  the  Comic  Opera  the  Italians  invented 
the  " Becitativo  secco,^^  a  very  proper  art  of  speak- 
ing musically — in  the  serious  Opera  they  sing 
throughout. 

— In  this  then,  they  take  precedence  of  other 
nations  in  music? 

— Perhaps,  however,  in  this  regard  only. 

— Yet  Gluck,  Mozart,  and  the  German  Opera 
in  general,  developed  under  the  influence  of  the 
Italians  ? 

— In  the  case  of  Gluck  and  Mozart  it  was  only 
an  outward  influence,  necessitated  above  all  by 
the  language  and  by  the  prevailing  forms  in 
musical  works ;  but  neither  on  their  melody, 
their  musical  expression,  nor  on  the  progression 


64 

of  their  ideas  is  there  an  influence  apparent. 
Gluck  is  neither  an  Italian  nor  a  French  mu- 
sician, although  he  wrote  his  operas  in  these  two 
languages;  nor  is  Mozart  an  Italian  musician, 
even  though  he  wrote  the  most  of  his  operas  in 
that  language. — Gluck  wrote  Gluck-music  and 
Mozart  wrote  Mozart-music,  and  the  German 
calls  them  both  his  own,  because  he  feels  the 
German-musician  in  them,  although  they  wrote 
in  a  foreign  language. 

— Are  you  in  favor  of,  or  opposed  to,  national 
creation  in  music? 

— The  nationality  of  that  land  in  which  a  com- 
poser is  bom  and  bred  will,  in  my  opinion, 
always  be  recognized  in  his  creation;  he  may 
live  in  another  land  and  write  in  another  lan- 
guage, as  evidence,  Handel,  Gluck,  Mozart  and 
others ;  there  is,  however,  a  reflected  national 
creation  (very  much  in  vogue  in  our  day),  and 
although  it  may  be  very  interesting,  it  cannot 
in  my  estimation  command  the  sympathy  of  the 
united   world,   and   awakens   an    ethnographical 


65 

interest  at  most. — For  example:  A  melody  that 
would  charm  tears  from  a  Finnlander  would  fall 
quite  coldly  upon  a  Spaniard ;  a  dance  rhythm 
that  would  compel  a  Hungarian  to  hop  and 
spring,  would  not  disturb  the  repose  of  an  Italian, 
and  so  on.  It  is  true  that  the  dance  rhythm  of 
one  nation  may  be  so  grafted  upon  that  of  another 
that  it  finally  accustoms  itself  to  it,  yes,  even 
enjoys  it  (as  for  instance  the  waltz  has  become 
universal) ;  but  two  nations  can  never  be  of  com- 
plete unity  of  feeling,  nor  of  the  same  enthusiasm 
in  their  melody  and  dances.  The  composers  of 
the  reflective-national  style  must  rest  satisfied 
with  the  acknowledgement  (often  adoration)  of 
their  own  country,  which  is  not  to  be  under- 
valued, as  it  probably  has  also  its  high  worth  and 
great  satisfaction. 

— You  have  omitted  to  give  me  the  names  of 
the  German  Opera  composers? 

— The  nomenclature  is  an  exceedingly  volu- 
minous one — in  the  Comic  Opera  from  Ditters- 
dorf,  Schenk,  Muller  to  Lortzing,  Flotow,  Gotze, 


66 

and  many  others ;  in  the  lyric  and  dramatic  from 
Winter,  Weigl,  Kreutzer  to  Wagner,  Goldmark, 
Kretschmar,  Nessler,  and  many  others;  in  the 
Operetta  from  Strauss,  Suppe,  Millocker  to  those 
growing  up  daily  in  our  midst. — The  most  im- 
portant of  these  are  already  known  to  you,  the 
others  increase  the  number  without  advancing 
the  art. 

— You  spoke  of  a  field  of  virtuosity  that 
should  be  explored? 

— Yes,  the  second  field,  which,  next  to  the 
Opera,  entirely  rules  the  public ;  but  before  we 
turn  to  this  we  must  once  more  clearly  review  the 
after-Beethoven  period  in  instrumental  music. 

— Is  this  really  worthy  of  mention  before  the 
time  of  Schumann  ? 

— Only  a  very  few  composers  in  Germany 
devoted  themselves  to  vocal  composition  exclu- 
sively, the  most  of  them  cultivated  almost  every 
style — as  Weber,  who  besides  being  an  opera  and 
song  composer  was  a  pianoforte  composer.  Spohr, 
the  head  of  the  German  school  of  the  violin, 


67 

was  a  composer  in  all  styles  of  music  and  dis- 
tinguished in  all,  but  in  all  too,  exhibiting  man- 
nerism to  monotony,  hence  probably  not  enduring 
— although  Avorks  such  as  his  Opera  "  Jessonda," 
his  Symphony  "Die  Weihe  der  Tone"  in  C-minor, 
several  Chamber  Music  pieces,  and  especially  his 
Violin  Concertos,  assure  him  at  all  events  an 
honorable  place  in  the  literature  of  music. 
Marschner,  the  most  important  German  Opera 
composer  between  Weber  and  Wagner,  has  writ- 
ten, besides,  a  large  amount  of  Chamber-Music ; 
Lachner,  Reissiger,  and  others,  likewise. 

— And  Mendelssohn  ? 

— To  give  to  his  appearance  the  value  that 
it  deserves,  we  must  not  leave  unmentioned  a 
period  of  time,  that  brought  us  much  that  was 
indeed  worthy  of  mention  in  vocal  music,  a  period 
that  is  known  as  the  time  of  the  "  Capellmeister- 
music." 

— What  is  the  meaning  of  this  term  ? 

— It  has  reference  to  those  composers  who 
wrote  according  to  every  rule  of  the   art,   and 


68 

after  given  models,  but  who  were  destitute  of  all 
creative  impulse,  and  of  the  creative  vein. 

— And  who  were  these  functionaries  of  the 
artf 

— All  those  who  lived  in  the  said  time. — I 
speak  of  instrumental  music,  and  thus  even  the 
names  of  Marschner,  Lachner,  Reissiger,  Lind- 
painter,  Fesca,  Kalliwoda,  and  many  others  must 
be  enumerated. 

— Did  you  not  previously  mention  Marschner 
among  the  great  ones? 

— His  Operas,  ^^  Vampi/r,"  ^' Templer  und 
Jiidiny^  especially  ^'■Hans  Heiling,^'  give  him  a 
place  of  honor  among  composers;  but  in  his 
Pianoforte  Trios,  and  other  instrumental  com- 
positions, even  in  the  overtures  to  his  Operas,  he 
belongs  to  the  above  category.  Lachner  we  must 
not  omit  to  mention,  for,  influenced  in  technique 
by  the  modern  spirit,  he  made  himself  conspicuous 
in  his  last  days  by  his  Orchestra  Suites ;  giving 
evidence  of  his  old,  masterly  technic,  and  his 
rejuvenated  power  in  invention.     Now  bring  this 


69 

time  home  very  clearly  to  your  mind: — in  the 
Opera,  Epigonenthum ;  in  Oratorio  and  Church 
style,  dry  barrenness  and  pedantry,  and  in  the 
Symphony  and  Chamber  style.  Kapellmeister 
music;  in  compositions  for  solo  instruments  the 
most  shallow  opera-fantasia  and  variation-scrib- 
bling ;  can  you  estimate  how  beneficial  to  the 
art  of  music  the  appearance  of  Mendelssohn  must 
have  been? 

— How  comes  it  then  that  he  is  slighted  at  this 
day,  and  even  by  musicians? 

— One  principal  reason  for  that  is  the  very 
great  esteem  he  enjoyed  during  his  lifetime,  after 
which  a  reaction  must  necessarily  come;  and 
then  it  is  not  to  be  denied  that,  in  comparison 
with  the  other  great  ones  of  art,  he  was  wanting 
in  depth,  earnestness  and  greatness  ;  but  that  was 
compensated  for  by  so  many  other  qualities,  that, 
I  am  convinced,  art-lovers  will  certainly  return  to 
him  with  love  and  reverence,  and  stiQ  greatly 
delight  in  him. 

— His  chief  work  was  instrumental  music? 


70 

— All  branches  of  art,  except  the  Opera,  had 
in  him  one  of  the  noblest  representatives — his 
creations  were  master-works  in  completeness  of 
form,  technic  and  beauty  of  tone,  and  furthermore, 
he  was  a  manifold  creator. — His  ^'Midsummer 
Nighfs  Dream"  is  a  musical  revelation! — New 
and  genial  in  invention,  in  orchestral  coloring,  in 
humor,  in  lyric,  in  romantic — his  type  seems  the 
fairy-like.  His  ^^ Songs  tvithout  words"  are  a 
genuine  treasure  of  lyric  and  pianoforte-tone- 
perfection;  his  "six  Preludes  and  Fugues  for 
Pianoforte"  a  splendid  work  of  modern-mode  in 
this  old  form,  and  especially  the  first  (E-minor) ; 
his  violin-concerto  is  a  imicum  of  beauty,  fresh- 
ness, grateful  technic  and  noble  virtuosity;  and 
his  overture  to  ^^FingaVs  Cave"  a  pearl  of  musical 
literature. — These  are,  in  my  opinion,  his  most 
genial  compositions,  but  his  Oratorios,  Psalms, 
Symphonies,  Chamber-music,  Songs,  etc.,  are  also 
works  which  place  him  among  the  heroes  of  the 
art. — In  general  I  would  designate  his  creations 
as  the  swan-song  of  the  classic. 


71 

— His  music  has  never  deeply  moved  me. 

— "Who  ne'er  his  bread  in  sorrow  ate." 
"Who  ne'er  the  sorrow-laden  nights,"  etc 
Mendelssohn  and  also  Meyerbeer  were  the  chil- 
dren of  wealthy  parents,  and  enjoyed  the  most 
refined  training  and  education ;  in  their  homes, 
surrounded  by  an  intellectually  select  society, 
they  pursued  Art,  not  as  a  means  of  subsistence, 
but  followed  it  as  an  impulse  of  the  mind;  and 
learned  life's  bitterness  at  most  in  an  unsatis- 
fied ambition  or  injured  vanity  at  the  beginning 
of  their  musical  careers;  knew  neither  the  cares 
of  livelihood  nor  position — and  all  this  is  heard  in 
their  creations — there  are  no  tears,  no  agonies  of 
the  soul,  no  bitterness,  and  almost  no  complaint. 

— And  yet  Mendelssohn  stands  so  high  in  your 
opinion  ? 

— Yes,  because  he  created  the  most  beautiful 
works  and  the  highest  in  abundance,  and  because 
he  rescued  instrumental  music  from  ruin. 

— And  his  contemporary,  Schumann  f 

— The  new  spirit  (Romanticism)  that  had  been 


72 

hovering  in  the  literature  of  all  lands  from  25  to 
50  of  our  century,  found  in  Schumann  its  musical 
echo ;  even  the  war  against  the  formal,  the  scho- 
lastic, the  pseudo-classic  had  in  him  its  musical 
champion — he  warred  against  the  Philistines, 
against  Capellmeister-music,  against  "  cue  "- 
critique,  against  the  perverted  taste  of  the  public, 
and  thus  found  in  the  beginning  of  his  artistic 
activity  the  material  for  extraordinarily  interest- 
ing and  musically-new  creations,  especially  for  the 
Pianoforte. 

— He  was  undoubtedly  more  tender,  warmer, 
more  soulful,  more  romantic,  richer  in  fantasy,  and 
more  subjective  than  Mendelssohn.  To  me  he  is 
most  sympathetic  in  his  pianoforte  compositions: 
his  Kreisleriana,  Phantasiestiicke,  Etudes  Sym- 
phoniques,  Cameval,  Fantasia  in  C-major,  and 
many  others  are  pearls  in  the  literature  of  the 
pianoforte,  and  his  Pianoforte  Concerto  in  A-minor 
is  just  such  a  unicum  in  pianoforte  literature  as  the 
Mendelssohn  Violin  Concerto  in  the  literature  of 
the  Violin;  after  these  come  his  songs.     I  rank 


73 

his  orchestral  works,  and  his  larger  vocal  compo- 
sitions as  third  in  the  list. 

— New  Pianoforte  forms  (not  always  grateful, 
but  always  interesting),  new  rhythms,  rich  and 
new  harmonies,  new  forms,  combined  with  the 
most  beautiful  invention  and  wonderfully  charm- 
ing melody;  all  this  stamps  him  as  one  of  the 
highest  we  possess  in  music. 

— And  absolutely  without  fault! 

— That  I  do  not  say. — Some  rhythmic  monot- 
ony, harmonic  overloading,  predilection  for  the 
song-form  in  his  pianoforte  works,  often  causing 
us  to  miss  in  them  the  great  flight,  the  great 
outline — frequent  faulty  instrumentation  in  his 
orchestral  and  chamber-music  (the  doubling  of 
the  voices),  and  often  mere  contrapuntal  treat- 
ment of  the  singing-voices  in  his  larger  vocal 
compositions  are  perhaps  mere  shadow  sides  of 
his  creation,  but  all  these  vanish  in  presence  of 
the  wonderful  beauty  of  his  thoughts. 

— How  does  the  Schumann  song  compare  with 
the  Schubert? 


74 

— It  is  difficult  to  make  the  comparison.  To 
me  Schubert's  songs  are  more  sympathetic,  be- 
cause more  original,  tender,  simple; — on  the 
other  hand,  Schumann's  are  often  finer,  more 
poetic — at  all  events  the  song  literature  of  Schu- 
bert, Schumann,  Mendelssohn  (since  their  time 
too,  very  much  that  is  beautiful  has  been  created 
in  this  branch)  is  a  golden  circlet  in  the  crown  of 
German  lyric. 

— Who  comes  now  on  the  list? 

— He,  whose  association  -with  my  chosen  ones 
caused  you  so  much  astonishment. 

— Chopin?     Now  you  arouse  my  curiosity. 

— You  will  perhaps  have  noticed  that  all  the 
greatest  of  those  of  whom  we  have  spoken  until 
now,  have  intrusted  their  most  intimate,  yes,  I 
may  almost  say,  most  beautiful  thoughts  to  the 
Pianoforte — but  the  Pianoforte-5an7,  tlie  Piano- 
{orte-Bhapsodist,  the  Pianoforte- JfmfZ,  the  Piano- 
forte-Soul  is  CJiopin.  Whether  the  spirit  of  this 
instrument  breathed  upon  him  or  he  upon  it, — 
how  he  wrote  for  it,  I  do  not  know;  but  only  an 


75 

entire  going-oyer-of-one-into-the-other  could  call 
such  compositions  to  life.  Tragic,  romantic,  Ijric, 
heroic,  dramatic,  fantastic,  soulful,  sweet,  dreamy, 
brilliant,  grand,  simple;  all  possible  expressions 
are  found  in  his  compositions,  and  are  all  sung  by 
him  upon  this  instrument. 

— You  are  becoming  extravagant! 

— Would  you  like  to  know  the  names  of  the 
compositions  that  justify  it?  His  Preludes  (to  nle 
the  pearls  of  his  works),  the  greater  half  of  his 
Etudes,  his  Nocturnes ;  his  Polonaises,  E-flat- 
minor,  C-sharp-minor,  F-sharp-minor,  A-flat- 
major,  especially  the  A-major  and  C-minor,  which 
always  seem  to  me  a  picture  (the  A-major)  of 
Poland's  greatness  and  (the  C-minor)  of  Poland's 
downfall ;  his  four  Ballades,  his  Scherzos,  B-minor 
and  B-flat  minor;  his  Sonatas,  B-flat  minor  and 
B-minor,  the  first  of  which  is  a  whole  drama, 
with  its  last  movement  (after  the  very  typical 
Funeral  March),  which  I  would  name:  '^ Night 
winds  siceeping  over  the  church-yard  graves'^ — and 
added  to  all  of  these,  "last,  but  not  least,"  his 


76 

Mazurkas!  His  Polonaises  and  Mazurkas  ex- 
cepted, he  has  written  no  Polish-reflective  music, 
but  in  all  of  his  compositions  we  hear  him  relate 
rejoicingly  Poland's  vanished  greatness,  singing, 
mourning,  weeping  over  Poland's  later  downfall, 
and  that  all  in  the  most  beautiful,  the  most  musical 
way. — From  a  purely  musical  standpoint,  how 
beautiful  in  invention,  how  perfect  in  technic  and 
form,  how  interesting  and  new  in  harmony,  and 
often  how  great !  Withal  it  is  not  to  be  forgotten 
that  he  too  (one  of  the  very  few)  developed  out  of 
himself,  with  the  exception  of  a  few  first  efforts 
where  the  Hummel  influence  is  felt  in  the  predilec- 
tion for  passages;  nor  should  we  overlook  the  highly 
interesting  fact  that  he  is  the  only  one  of  the  com- 
posers who,  conscious  of  his  specialty,  creates  for 
this  specialty  (the  Pianoforte)  and  (with  the  excep- 
tion of  a  few  songs)  attempts  no  other  style  of  com- 
position.— He  was  indeed  the  soul  of  the  Pianoforte! 
— To  me  too  he  is  very  sympathetic,  but  I 
should  still  not  have  thought  that  he  could  be  the 
object  of  such  deification. 


77 

— Moreover  he  is  to  me  as  an  exhalation  of  the 
ihird  epoch  in  our  art. 

— May  I  ask  you  to  explain  your  division  of 
time  into  epochs  a  little  more  clearly  to  me  ?  I 
do  not  understand  it  fully. 

— I  am  not  delivering  to  you  a  discourse  on  the 
History  of  Music,  we  are  merely  talking  over  the 
progress  of  music  in  general,  and  of  its  most 
important  representatives. — As  you  already  know, 
I  regard  Palestrina  as  the  beginning  of  music  as  an 
art,  and  reckon  from  him  on  as  the  first  epoch  of 
our  art,  which  I  call  the  Organ-  and  Vocal-epoch 
— and  as  the  greatest  representatives  of  this  epoch 
and  its  point  of  culmination  I  recognize  Bach  and 
Handel.  The  second  epoch,  which  I  call  the 
Instrumental-epoch,  that  is,  the  development  of 
the  Pianoforte  and  of  the  Orchestra,  I  reckon 
from  Ph.  Em.  Bach  on,  with  Haydn  and  Mozart 
to  Beethoven  inclusive;  recognizing  these  as  the 
greatest  representatives  and  the  point  of  culmina- 
tion of  this  epoch. — The  third  epoch,  the  lyric- 
romantic,    I    reckon    from    Schubert    on,    with 


78 

Weber,  Mendelssohn,  Schumann,  atid  Chopin, 
whom  I  recognize  as  its  last  representatives. 
Everything  else  in  regard  to  this  question  you 
will  find  in  the  history  of  music. 

— I  will  try  to  follow  you  in  your  views. 

— ^Now  comes  the  second  name,  that  caused 
you  so  much  astonishment — that  is.  Glinka.  We 
have  spoken  before  of  the  striving  for  the  national 
in  music,  my  opinion  of  which  you  already  know, 
but  Glinka  is  so  distinguished  in  this  endeavor 
that  he  stands  high  above  all  others  who  have 
made  like  attempts. — Schiller  says:  '^The  gods 
never  come  singlyj^  and  that  is  noticable  also  in 
our  art  |  with  every  manifestation  of  art  whole 
groups  arise,  as  also  in  the  endeavor  for  national 
creation  in  music. — We  will  review  these  attempts 
in  the  different  countries :  Erkel  in  Hungary, 
Smetana  in  Bohemia,  the  majority  of  the  com- 
posers in  Sweden  and  Norway — earlier  Balfe  and 
now  the  majority  of  English  composers,  and  so 
on  j  from  all  of  these  we  hear  the  all-the-world- 
imisic   in   the    Romanza,    or   the    Chorus    or    a 


79 

Dance  of  national  character — with  Glinka  this  i& 
not  the  case; — from  the  first  note  to  the  last  in 
the  overture,  as  well  as  in  the  vocal  part  of  his 
Operas  (Recitative,  Aria,  Ensemble),  all  is  of 
national  character;  melody,  harmony,  yes,  even 
the  treatment  of  the  orchestra.  He  has  usually 
the  combination  of  two  nationalities  in  his  operas; 
in  his  '''■  Lebcn  fiir  den  Zar^^  Russian  and  Polish; 
in  his  ^'Busslan  und  Ludmilla"  the  Russian  and 
Circassian. — The  character  of  both  nationalities 
is  heard  throughout,  at  the  same  time  united 
with  the  most  perfect  mastery  and  technic. 

— Did  he  not  write  after  the  Italian  model, 
introducing  Arias,  Ensembles,  etc.? 

— He  has  retained  that  form,  living  under  the 
influence  of  the  Italian  Opera  which  ruled  exclu- 
sively in  Russia  until  a  short  time  ago,  but  his 
melody  and  harmony,  his  invention  and  mood 
always  retain  a  specific  national  coloring. 

— So  far  as  known  to  me,  he  was  a  composer 
of  vocal  music  exclusively  f 

— He  has  not  written  many  instrumental  works^ 


^  80 

"but  among  them  a  Capriccio  on  the  folk-theme 
*^ Kamarinskaja"  which  has  become  the  type  for 
Russian  instrumental  music,  and  is  really  of  great 
geniality — some  very  beautiful  Entr'act  music  to  a 
tragedy,  ^'Fiirst  CholmsJcy"  in  which  the  Jewish 
element  appears  in  remarkable  coloring, — ex- 
tremely interesting  orchestral  works  on  Spanish 
Folk-songs  and  Dances,  and  a  few  things  for 
Pianoforte  alone ;  his  chief  branch  is,  however, 
the  Opera,  and  in  spite  of  that  he  is  to  me  one  of 
my  five. 

— I  cannot  say  that  you  have  entirely  con- 
vinced me,  with  reference  to  your  five  chosen 
ones,  but  in  all  that  has  reference  to  Bach, 
Beethoven  and  Schubert  I  agree  with  you,  and 
■can  even  comprehend  too,  that  you  as  a  pianist, 
so  revel  in  Chopin,  and  as  a  Russian,  in  Glinka. 

— Before  we  enter  upon  the  new  era  of  com- 
position, the  era  of  to-day  (the  fourth  epoch  of 
music  as  an  art),  we  must  explore  the  field  of 
Yirtuosity — divided  into  two  epochs,  the  epoch 
including  the  first  half  of  our  century,  in  which 


81 

the  Virtuoso  brought  out  mostly  his  own  com- 
positions, and  the  succeeding  epoch,  in  which  he 
appears  chiefly  as  an  executant  artist  of  the  com- 
positions of  others.  For  us  the  earlier  epoch 
only  is  of  interest,  as  it  alone  could  exercise  an 
influence  on  the  progress  of  the  art  of  music. 
Of  the  wind  instruments  we  can  say  but  little,  as 
the  Virtuoso  on  them  could  have  influence  only  in 
a  technical  sense,  and  as  regards  the  construction 
of  the  instrument  and  its  use  in  the  orchestra. 

— This  literature  has  always  been  a  cheerless 
one  with  the  exception  of  some  few  compositions 
written  for  them  by  the  great  composers  (Handel, 
Weber). — Of  the  Violin  until  Paganini  and  Spohr 
we  have  already  spoken,  if  we  add  the  names: 
Eode,  Kreutzer,  Molique,  Lipinsky,  Beriot, 
Vieuxtemps,  David,  Ernst,  Wieniawski,  whose 
compositions  are  of  great  importance  for  the 
instrument,  although  not  for  the  art  in  general; 
for  the  latter,  however,  all  that  such  masters  as 
Bach,  Beethoven  and  Mendelssohn  have  wTitten 
for  this  instrument  is  of  the  greatest  importance, 


82 

and  we  maj  now  leave  this  instrument. — The 
literature  for  Violoncello,  whose  earlier  repre- 
sentatives were  Romberg,  Dupont  and  others, 
later  Servais,  Davidoff,  Popper  and  others,  is 
still  less  significant  than  that  of  the  violin  and 
for  the  art  in  general.  As  regards  technic,  the 
great  significance  of  Paganini  for  the  violin, 
Servais  for  the  Violoncello,  and  their  indirect 
influence  in  this  manner  on  the  art  in  general 
must  not  remain  unnoticed.  Of  the  influence  of 
the  Song- Virtuoso  on  the  composers  (in  no  case 
beneficial)  we  have  also  spoken  before,  and  now 
we  come  to  the  instrument  that  occupies  the 
principal  place,  as  regards  the  art,  namely,  the 
Pianoforte.  On  account  of  its  compass,  onlj 
inferior  to  that  of  the  Organ  (it  still  has  pre- 
cedence of  the  latter,  however,  in  the  shading 
of  tone :  piano  and  forte)  it  must  of  course  be 
the  instrument  most  attractive  to  the  musician; 
in  addition  to  the  advantage  of  having  this  com- 
pass entirely  at  his  command,  he  enjoys  the 
power  (so  dear  to  the  musician)   of  individual 


83 

rendering  (for  in  any  other  interpretation  he  is 
dependent  not  alone  upon  himself,  but  upon 
numerous  conditions) ;  therefore  the  Pianoforte  as 
the  instrument  of  music  has  become,  so  to  say,  the 
photograph-apparatus  of  the  musician,  as  the 
dictionary  is  the  musical  Encyclopaedia  of  the 
public.  Every  great  composer  was  at  the  same 
time  a  Pianoforte  Virtuoso  5  of  those  we  have 
already  spoken,  now  we  must  speak  of  the  great 
Pianoforte  Virtuosi,  who  at  the  same  time  were 
composers. — We  must  begin  with  Clementi,  whom 
we  may  call  the  father  or  the  teacher  of  modem 
pianoforte  virtuosity. — Who  the  teachers  of  Scar- 
latti, Couperin,  Rameau,  Bach,  Handel,  Haydn, 
Mozart,  and  even  Beethoven,  were,  we  do  not 
know  and  can  only  wonder  how  they  acquired 
such  technic  (virtuosity),  especially  Scarlatti, 
Bach,  and  Beethoven,  whose  technic  for  us,  still, 
to-day,  is  a  hard  nut  to  crack. — Clementi  is  the 
first  representative  of  the  Pianoforte  pedagogy 
and  his  ^'Gradus  ad  Pamassum,"  even  to  the 
present  day,  the  surest  guide  to  virtuosity.     His 


84 

Sonatas  (a  few  among  them  are  not  without 
artistic  value)  are  of  the  type  of  that  scholastic 
period  in  which,  under  the  cloak  of  classic-form, 
the  chief  interest  was  the  virtuoso  technic. — Not 
the  fa9ade,  but  the  rear  portal  of  the  temple  of 
art  preserves  such  names  as  Dussek,  Steibelt, 
Hummel,  Cramer,  Moscheles,  Czerny,  Field, 
Kalkbrenner,  Herz,  and  many  others,  with  whom 
first  the  Sonata  pines  away  in  meaninglessness, 
then  the  Pianoforte  Concerto  was  cultivated 
merely  from  a  standpoint  of  the  passage,  and 
Polaccas,  Rondos  briUants  and  a  la  Cosaque  were 
principal  works,  and  sadly  enough,  the  favorite 
nourishment  of  the  public, — The  variation  was 
the  most  horribly  misused.  This  eldest  of  all 
instrumental  forms,  which  in  Beethoven  rises  to 
ethics,  sinks  to  the  emptiness  of  Herz,*)  to  unfold 
again,  however,  with  Mendelssohn,  and  especially 
Schumann,  into  beautiful  being — the  pedagogic- 


*)  Mendelssohn  even  felt  himself  moved  to  give  his  variations 
the  title  "Variations  s^rieuses"  in  order  to  distinguish  them 
ftom  the  "  variations"  in  vogue  at  that  day. 


85 

etude  being  the  onlv  branch  of  the  art  which  at 
that  time  preserved  a  worthy  position. 

— But  the  names  vou  mentioned  are  mostly 
contemporary  with  Beethoven,  Schubert  and 
Weber? 

— They  ruled  the  public  entirely,  however. — 
Soon  after  his  death  the  Pianoforte-Beethoven 
(except  two  or  three  Sonatas  which  had  attained 
some  popularity)  became  solely  the  private  cult 
of  a  very  few  music-fanatics  j  the  Pianoforte- 
Schubert  was  entirely  ignored;  the  Pianoforte" 
Weber,  it  is  true,  remained  the  order  of  the  day, 
but  only  in  a  few  of  his  works,  and  merely  as  a 
more  earnest  expression  of  the  then  reigning 
literature. — But  Hummel,  Moscheles  and  Field 
are  personages  who  shine  as  meteors  among  the 
others  mentioned.  Hummel,  if  he  had  not  been 
sicklied  with  the  regulation-  and  the  passage- 
craze,  might  have  been  counted  among  the  real 
composers,  for  works  like  his  Sonata  in  F  sharp 
minor,  his  four-hand  Sonata  in  A  flat-major,  his 
Fantasia  in  E  flat-major,  his  Septette,  his  Con- 


86 

certo  in  A-minor,  and  especially  B-minor  give 
him  entire  right  to  a  place  in  the  "  parterre  des 
rois  "  in  the  Temple  of  Art. — Thus  also  Moscheles, 
whose  Concerto  in  G-minor  will  always  remain  a 
beautiful  work  of  music,  and  who,  although  stiffly 
scholastic,  is  one  of  the  first  who  brought  us  the 
Fantasia  (not  variation)  on  opera  themes,  bring- 
ing with  it  a  singing  and  dramatic  rendering  in 
pianoforte  playing, — Field  creates,  it  is  true,  in 
a  small  frame,  but  is  of  valuable  influence  in  his 
Nocturnes. 

— But  now  (again,  simultaneously)  Thalberg, 
Liszt,  and  Henselt  appear  5  three  personages  who 
give  the  Pianoforte  an  entirely  new  character, 
freeing  it  from  the  scale  and  passage  style  and 
qualifying  it  for  the  canto  with  arpeggio  accom- 
paniment— Thalberg,  in  the  orchestral — Liszt,  in 
the  polyphonic  and  broader  harmony  style — while 
Henselt  crowded  out  the  variation  on  an  opera 
theme  and  introduced  the  Fantasia  on  several 
opera  themes  not  however  with  the  Moscheles 
simplicity,    but   with    an    until   then   unknown, 


87 

virtuosity  and  a  climax-effect  allowing  two  themes 
to  sing  at  the  same  time. 

— Liszt  and  Henselt  gave  the  Etude  aesthetic 
character,  going  from  the  purely  pedagogic  to 
the  artistic  (like  the  ^'Etiide"  in  the  art  of  paint- 
ing) and  gave  each  a  name  or  title  ("Mazeppa,'' 
^'Si  oiseau  j'etais,  a  toi  je  volerais,"  "Orage,  tu  ne 
saurais  m'abattre,"  and  so  on*).  All  three  intro- 
duce the  transcription  of  songs  and  orchestral 
works  for  the  Piano,  dance  rhythms  with  bravura 
and  concert  treatment,  inaugurating  in  general  the 
era  of  transcendental  virtuosity  for  the  Pianoforte. 

— And  what  is  the  influence  that  they  exert 
upon  art! 

— Virtuosity  exercises  an  immediate  influence 
on  composition  in  general,   widens  the  range  of 


*)  Moscheles'  "Etudes  caracteristiques "  are  works  of  the 
same  epoch.  Chopin  also  wrote  Etudes  at  this  time  without 
especial  names,  without  programme,  but  worlds  of  pschycological 
contents ;  for  instance,  those  in  E  major,  E  flat  minor,  C  sharp 
minor,  B  flat  minor,  C  minor,  and  others.  I  separate  the  Etudes 
of  these  two  composers  from  the  above  mentioned,  because  they 
appear  to  me  of  a  more  serious  character  musicallj. 


88 

expression  and  multiplies  the  means  for  com- 
position.— As  the  greatest  composers  were  them- 
selves Virtuosi,  that  is,  had  an  excellent  technic 
on  their  instruments,  they  influenced  the  style  of 
composition  of  the  ^^minorum  gentium''^  and  so 
one  went  hand  in  hand  with  the  other,  the  com- 
poser was  influenced  by  the  virtuosity,  and  this 
again  by  the  composer.  Besides  this.  Virtuosity 
always  influenced  the  construction  of  the  instru- 
ment. When  Beethoven  in  his  Sonata  op.  110, 
allows  a  tone  to  be  struck  28  times  in  the  begin- 
ning of  the  adagio,  that  is  a  challenge  to  the 
instrument  maker  to  try,  if  possible,  to  prolong 
the  tone  of  the  Pianoforte. 

— Why  do  the  critics  war  against  the  Virtuoso 
and  slight  him? 

— They  do  so  against  those  who  use  virtuosity 
as  an  end  and  not  a  means. — I  must  protest,  in  a 
measure,  against  this  ideal  point  of  view. — I 
think  "there  must  be  such  fellows  too!"  (Es 
muss  auch  solche  Kauze  geben) — for,  first,  per- 
fection always  commands  respect,  no  matter  in 


89 

what  field  it  is  found,  and  second,  their  influence 
if  only  indirect  is  still  apparent  in  the  art. 

— Thus  Paganini's  compositions  are  not  of 
especial  worth  in  an  artistic  sense,  but  Paganini 
gave  new  life  to  the  Violin ;  Servais'  Violoncello 
compositions  are  of  even  less  worth — Servais, 
however,  gave  new  life  to  the  Violoncello  ;  Thal- 
berg's  Pianoforte  compositions  are  of  the  most 
indifferent  art,  but  Thalberg  gave  new  life  to  the 
Pianoforte,  and  so  on. — But  since  the  Virtuosi  of 
to-day  dare  not  play  their  own  compositions,  but 
only  those  of  others,  they  are  not  able  to  show  us- 
what  they  possibly  could  accomplish,  but  simply 
what  they  are  compelled  to  give,  hence  the  down- 
fall of  Virtuosity — for  one  may  dare  only  in  his 
own  composition  to  "break  all  bounds/^  and  this 
"  breaking  all  bounds  "  furthers  the  promotion  of 
Virtuosity. — The  holding  fast  to  what  is  pre- 
scribed and  demanded  is  beautiful  and  noble,  yet 
it  does  not  further  promotion.  At  an  earlier  day 
the  Virtuoso-  incited  the  instrument  maker,  by 
his  demands,  to  perfection  of  construction,  now 


90 

the  instrument  maker  tries  to  inauce  the  Virtuoso, 
by  all  manner  of  inventions,  to  perfection  of 
technic. — There  are  many  very  excellent  piano 
players  to-day,  but  of  Virtuosi  in  the  sense  of 
advancement  I  would  name  Tausig  as  the  last  5  the 
same  with  the  Violin,  and  we  may  call  Wieniawski 
its  last  Virtuoso;  of  the  Violoncello,  Davidoff,  and 
in  song,  Viardot-Garcia. 

— In  this  point  I  partly  agree  with  you  ;  I 
believe  too,  that  we  require  the  executive  artist 
of  to-day  to  express  his  individuality  in  too  great 
a  degree,  and  have  in  this  way  created  a  kind  of 
musical  respectability  (so  to  say),  which  is  inter- 
esting, but  ultimately  rather  wearisome. 

— And  now  you  will  be  horrified  with  what  I 
am  about  to  say — I  think,  that  with  the  death  of 
Schumann  and  Chopin  "finis  musicae"! 

— Ha,  ha,  ha,  it  cannot  be  possible  that  you 
mean  that  seriously? 

— I  paean  it  perfectly  seriously — I  speak  of 
musical  creation,  melody,  thought. — There  is 
much  that  is  interesting  and  perhaps  valuable 


91 

written  to-day^  no  doubt,  but  nothing  beautiful, 
gi'eat,  deep,  or  high;  especially  not  in  instru- 
mental music — and  that  is,  as  you  know,  my 
standard. 

— How  can  you  prove  that? 

— By  the  existing  excess  of  coloring  at  the 
expense  of  drawing,  of  technic  at  the  expense  of 
thought,  of  frame  at  the  expense  of  picture. 

— And  now  I  would  like  to  have  a  clearer  and 
more  precise  explanation. 

— Three  names  represent  the  standard  bearers 
of  the  new  era  in  music  (fourth  epoch  of  the  art 
of  music) — Berlioz,  Wagner,  and  Liszt.  The 
most  interesting  of  the  three,  even  on  account  of 
the  time  in  which  he  appeared  (in  1830,  by  the 
way),  and  because  he  did  not  become  modern,  but 
declared  himself,  on  the  contrary,  at  the  very 
beginning  of  his  musical  activity  as  such,  is 
Serlioz.  He  discovered  new  tone-eifects  in 
orchestra,  held  to  no  prescribed  form,  regarded 
the  treatment  of  the  text  (declamation)  as  of  the 
greatest    value    in    tone-painting     (programme- 


92 

music);  introduced  the  realistic  in  music,  that 
is,  made  an  attempt  to  do  this  in  his  Requiem^ 
where  in  the  '^  Tuba  mirum "  he  ranges  a  host 
of  brass  instruments  at  different  places  in  the  hall 
or  church ;  took  delight  in  strange  and  peculiar 
instrumentation — whole  chords  for  eight  pairs  of 
drums,  chords  for  contrabassi  divisi,  substituted 
flageolets  for  the  stringed  instruments  of  the 
orchestra,  and  other  things  of  the  same  kind,  but 
specific  musical  thought,  melodic  invention,  beauty 
of  form,  richness  in  harmony  (in  this  respect  he 
was  really  weak)  are  not  to  be  found  in  him. — 
Dazzling  in  coloring,  effective,  interesting,  he  is 
in  everything,  but  in  all  too  reflective,  subtilized, 
neither  beautiful  nor  great,  neither  deep  nor 
high — and  if  one  play  one  of  his  own  compositions 
on  the  piano,  even  four-handed  (that  is  full- 
toned)  the  coloring  of  the  instrumentation  is  lost,^ 
and  there  remains — nothing. — But  play  the  9th 
Symphony  of  Beethoven  upon  the  piano,  even 
with  two  hands  (that  is  with  less  tone)  and  one  is 
overwhelmed  with  its  greatness  of  thought  and 


93 

soulful  expression !  One  work  I  wish  to  except, 
it  is  the  overture  to  the  ''Roman  CarnivaV^ — a 
famous  composition  in  musical  invention. — The 
second  in  interest  is  Wagner. 

— Truly,  to  me  he  is  the  most  interesting. 

— While  I  was  visiting  Mendelssohn  one  Sun- 
day in  Berlin,  in  '45  or  '46,  I  met  Taubert  also, 
who  noticing  the  orchestra-score  of  Tannhauser 
on  the  piano,  asked  Mendelssohn  what  he  thought 
of  the  composer  of  that  opera  ?  Mendelssohn 
answered :  '^ A  man  who  writes  text  and  music 
himself^  to  his  operas^  is  no  common  man  at  all 
events ! "  Yes,  no  common  man,  but  still  not 
one  who  reverses  my  opinion  of  the  modern 
composers. 

— He  is  also  highly  interesting,  very  valuable, 
but  beautiful  or  great,  deep  or  high  in  a  specific 
musical  sense,  he  is  not. 

— Would  you  deny  him  novelty  too  ? 

— He  is  so  many-sided  as  he  appears  to  us  that 
it  is  difficult  to  give  a  general  opinion  of  him.  He 
is,  besides,  so  unsympathetic  to  me  in   his  art 


94 

principles,  that  my  view  of  him  would  only  annoy 
you. 

— I  have  had  the  patience  to  hear  all  that  you 
have  said  until  now,  and  so  will  be  able  to  listen 
to  your  opinion  of  him. 

— He  looks  upon  vocal  music  as  the  highest 
expression  of  music — with  the  exception  of  the 
song  and  church  music,  music-worship  for  me, 
begins  where  words  cease.  He  speaks  of  a  Union 
of  Arts  (combination  of  all  arts  for  the  Opera)  j  I 
think  that  in  such  case  we  could  not  do  entire 
justice  to  either. — He  advocates  the  Legend 
(Sage),  the  Supernatural,  as  material  for  Opera 
text;  in  my  estimation  the  legend  is  always  a 
cold  expression  of  art — it  may  be  an  interesting 
and  poetic  play,  but  never  a  drama,  for  we 
cannot /ee?  with  a  supernatural  being. 

— When  a  despot  .compels  a  father  to  shoot  an 
apple  from  the  head  of  his  son — or  when  a  mfe 
rescues  her  husband  from  the  dagger-thrust  of 
his  enemy  by  throwing  herself  between  them — 
or  when  a  son  is  obliged  to  disown  his  mother 


95 

publicly  and  declare  her  mentally  deranged  in 
order  to  save  her  life — and  so  forth — it  stirs  the 
inmost  heart,  be  it  spoken  or  sung  or  merely 
represented  in  pantomime ;  but  when  a  hero 
makes  himself  invisible  in  a  Tarn-cap,  or  trans- 
cendent love  is  produced  by  a  love-draught,  or  a 
knight  appears  drawn  by  a  swan  which  shall  at 
last  unmask  itself  as  a  prince,  it  may  be  all  very 
beautiful,  very  poetic  for  eye  and  ear,  but  the 
heart,  the  soul  remain  entirely  apathetic. — A 
Leit-motiv  for  certain  personages  or  situations  is 
such  a  naive  proceeding,  that  it  leads  to  the 
comic  rather  than  to  appeal  to  an  earnest  thought ; 
allusion — rather  an  old  device  in  the  art — is  some- 
times eflfective,  yet  does  not  admit  of  abuse;  but 
the  resounding  of  the  same  motive  at  each  appear- 
ance of  a  character,  or  when  he  is  only  spoken  of, 
and  the  same  for  particular  situations  is  a  hyper- 
characteristic,  yes,  I  may  say  almost  a  caricature. 
The  exclusion  of  Arias  and  ensemble  in  an  Opera 
is,  in  my  opinion,  psychologically  incorrect. — The 
aria  in  the  opera  is  the  same  as  the  monologue  in 


96 

drama — the  state  of  mind  of  a  character  before  or 
after  certain  events  as  Avell  as  the  ensemble  of  the 
emotions  of  the  several  characters ;  how  can  it 
be  excluded?  Characters  who  speak  only  to 
each  other,  never  to  themselves  (that  is,  to  the 
public),  become  uninteresting,  because  one  can- 
not discover  tvhetJier  anything,  and  ivhat  is  taking 
place  in  their  minds. — A  love-duo  in  which  no 
moment  of  mutual  bliss  (singing  together)  is  per- 
mitted, cannot  be  quite  sincere,  the  eye  to  eye, 
heart  on  heart  resounding  ''I  love  thee!"  is  want- 
ing !  The  Orchestra  in  his  Operas  is  too  much 
of  a  good  thing,  it  lessens  the  interest  in  the 
vocal  part ;  and  although,  according  to  his  inten- 
tion, it  is  to  express  all  that  is  taking  place  in 
the  minds  of  the  actors,  as  they  do  not  express  it 
themselves,  the  additional  importance  it  gains 
thereby  can  only  be  an  evil,  for  it  makes  the 
singing  on  the  stage  almost  superfluous ;  one 
often  feels  like  begging  that  it  may  be  silenced 
80  that  he  may  hear  what  is  going  on  on  the 
stage.     It  would  be  difficult  to  find  a  more  in- 


97 

teresting  orchestra  in  an  opera  than  that  of 
^'Fidelio,"  and  in  it  this  necessity  is  not  for  one 
moment  felt. — Making  the  change  of  scene 
invisible  by  means  of  rising  vapours  is  really  too 
unbearable. — Theatre  impossibilities  are  not  to 
be  remedied,  it  is  impossible  to  make  a  change 
of  scene  any  other  way  than  by  changing  the 
scene  ;  whether  the  scene  sinks  or  rises,  whether 
an  intervening  curtain  falls  or  vapours  arise,  it  is 
the  same,  the  illusion  is  disturbed,  but  any  sort  of 
disturbance  is  after  all  to  be  preferred  to  the 
Hiss-Symphony  of  rising  vapours !  Darkening 
the  audience  chamber  during  the  performance  is 
rather  a  caprice  than  a  real  aesthetic  necessity. 
The  proportion  of  illumination  gained  by  the 
stage  and  impersonators  by  this  means,  is  really 
not  so  important  that  the  hearer  should  be  obliged 
to  suffer  the  longing  for  matches  for  a  whole 
evening.  For  this  innovation  the  Theatre  Direc- 
tors alone  wUl  return  him  thanks  on  account  of 
the  reduction  in  the  expense  of  illumination.  The 
invisible  orchestra  which  is  of  real  eflFect  only  in  the 


98 

first  scene  of  his  "  Rheingold  "  is  an  hyper-ideal 
demand,  and  for  no  other  opera,  not  even  for  his 
own  does  it  stand  the  test. — The  muffled  sound 
of  the  orchestra  in  this  novel  position  makes  it 
undesirable — aside  from  that,  invisible  music  is 
effective  only  in  the  church,  where  one  looks 
within  himself,  not  about  him ;  there  are  but 
few  compositions,  mostly  of  Beethoven  or  Chopin 
that  gain  in  effect,  heard  in  this  manner — but 
the  Tannhauser-Overture,  for  example,  would  at 
any  rate  lose  in  effect,  if  one  could  not  see  the 
movements  of  the  arms  in  the  violin-figure  at 
the  close.  From  an  ideal  standpoint  there  is  so- 
much  to  disturb  one  in  seeing  or  hearing  a  work 
of  art,  yet  one  accommodates  himself  to  it  and 
should  not  demand  the  impossible — hence  the 
sight  of  a  director  and  the  musicians  of  the 
orchestra  in  the  performance  of  an  Opera  is  not 
so  frightful  that  the  pure  musical  effect  in  the 
beauty  of  tone  should  be  sacrificed  to  avoid  it. 

— You  speak  altogether  of  art  principles,  but 
say  nothing  of  his  music  ? 


99 

— The  doctrine  of  the  infallibility  of  the  Pope 
perhaps  disgusted  many  a  one  with  the  Catholic 
Church. — Had  Wagner  composed,  brought  out^ 
and  published  his  Operas,  without  expressing  his 
own  opinions  about  them  in  his  writings,  they 
would  have  been  praised,  blamed,  loved  or  not^ 
as  in  the  case  of  the  other  composers,  but  to 
declare  himself  as  the  only  source  of  happiness, 
awakens  opposition  and  protest.  Some  of  his 
works  are  indeed  worthy  of  respect  (Lohengrin, 
Meistersinger  and  the  Faust  Overture  I  like  best 
among  them),  but  the  principle,  the  reflected 
pretensions  in  his  creations  disgust  me  with  them 
in  general.  The  lack  of  naturalness,  simplicity, 
makes  them  unsympathetic  to  me.  All  of  the 
characters  in  his  operas  stride  about  on  stilts  (in 
the  sense  of  the  musical)  always  disclaiming, 
never  speaking,  always  pathetic,  never  dramatic, 
always  as  gods  or  semi-gods,  never  as  human,  or  as 
a  simple  mortal. — Everything  makes  the  impres- 
sion of  the  six  foot  Alexandrian  verse,  of  the  cold 
forced  alliteration. 


100 

— His  melody  is  either  lyric  or  pathetic,  no 
other  mood  is  to  be  heard — it  is  noble  and 
broad,  but  always  only  noble  and  broad;  void  of 
rhythmic  charm  and  of  variety — hence  entirely 
lacking  diversity  of  musical  characteristic ; — 
neither  a  Zerlina  or  a  Leonora  are  imaginable 
from  him — even  in  case  of  his  Evehen  in  the 
Meistersinger,  the  diminutive  chen  is  present 
in  the  name  only,  and  not  to  be  heard  in  the 
music.  His  melody  never  indicates  the  musical 
thought,  the  character,  his  text  alone  does  that 
(the  leit-motiv  indicates  only  the  outer,  not  the 
inner  character);  hence  his  operas  with  few 
exceptions  played  upon  the  pianoforte  without 
underlying  text  would  be  mostly  unintelligible, 
but  Don  Juan,  Fidelio,  Freischiitz  played  upon 
the  piano  would  always  bring  before  one  a  satis- 
factory picture  of  the  different  characters,  yes, 
even  the  whole  action  of  the  Opera. — His  orches- 
tra is  indeed  new  and  imposing,  but  not  seldom 
monotonous  in  the  means  of  effect  or  in  the  un- 
impassioned  parts;  often  trying  to  the  nerves  in 


JOl 

the  soft  instrumentation  as  well  as  in  the  energetic 
powerful  parts — wanting  in  economy  and  variety 
of  shading,  because  Wagner  (as  to-day  in  fact  all 
do)  paints  (musically)  from  beginning  to  end  of  his 
works  with  all  the  colors  at  his  command. — Thus 
he  is  no  doubt  a  highly  interesting  appearance 
in  music,  but  in  comparison  with  the  great  ones 
of  the  past,  merely  specificaUy  musical  for  me, 
and  of  a  very  questionable  art ! 

— Vox  populi  declares  him  a  genius. 

— The  public  has  heard  and  read  so  often  of 
its  own  incapacity  to  recognize  a  genius  during 
his  life-time  that  it  is  now  ready  to  declare  any 
one  a  genius  out  of  mere  fear  of  bringing  upon 
itself  the  reproach  of  non-recognition. 

— But  you  do  not  recognize  that  Wagner 
breathed  a  new  life  into  the  Opera  f 

— Every  art  has  its  own  conditions  of  life,  its 
especial  claims,  its  limits  and  so  on,  also  every 
branch  of  art.  To  wish  to  make  anything  else 
out  of  an  Opera  than  an  Opera  may  no  doubt  be 
very   interesting,  but  it   annuls  the  Opera.     It 


102 

seems  to  me  like  the  pianoforte  manufacturer's 
attempt  to  make  string-  or  wind-instrument 
"attachments"  to  the  Pianoforte  in  order  to  pro- 
long or  change  the  character  of  the  tone — a 
wholly  useless  attempt. — An  Adagio  of  Beethoven 
or  a  Nocturne  of  Chopin  is  conceived  and  in- 
tended for  the  Pianoforte  and  its  tone-character, 
its  arrangement  for  another  instrument  is  like 
coloring  a  white  marble  statiie — (the  arranging  of 
an  orchestral  work  for  the  Pianoforte  is  different 
— ^that  is  musical  photography).  Wagner  creates 
then  a  new  branch  of  art  (Music-Drama) — 
whether  it  was  necessary  and  whether  it  possesses 
vitality  enough  to  live,  time  must  teach  us ! 

— You  have  not  succeeded  in  taking  away  my 
admiration  for  him. 

— I  am  far  from  wishing  to  force  my  opinion 
upon  you  in  any  one  of  the  questions  we  have 
discussed  so  far. — I  merely  express  them  to  you. 

— The  third  of  the  '^ars  militans"  is  Liszt. — 
Demon  of  music  I  would  call  him!  Inflaming, 
intoxicating  by  his  fantastic  style,  bewitching  by 


103 

Ms  grace,  raising  one  with  him  in  his  flight  to 
the  highest  height,  and  dragging  one  with  him 
to  the  deepest  deep,  taking  on  and  off  all  forms, 
ideal  and  real  at  once,  knowing  all  and  able  to  do 
all,  but — false  in  all,  insincere,  contentious, 
theatrical,  and  bearing  in  himself  the  evil  prin- 
ciple. He  has  two  periods  in  his  artistic  career 
— the  first,  the  Virtuoso-period,  the  second,  the 
Composer-period.  The  first  is  in  my  estimation 
his  most  illustrious — unattained  and  unattainable 
in  piano  playing,  highly  interesting  in  his  Virtuoso 
compositions  (Opera  Fantasias,  Etudes,  Song- 
transcriptions,  Hungarian  Rhapsodies,  smaller 
concert  pieces,  and  others)  he  shone,  the  most 
brilliant  star  in  the  musical  firmament  from  the 
year  1830  until  1852,  dazzling  the  public  of  all 
Europe  with  his  light.  Appearing  at  the  same 
time  as  Thalberg,  one  need  only  look  over  the 
Fantasias  of  both  on  a  theme  from  Don  Juan  to 
become  aware  of  the  difference,  wide  as  heaven, 
that  distinguishes  them. — Thalberg,  the  prim, 
smooth,     curried,    insignificant,     perfect    Salon- 


104 

gentleman  (in  a  musical  sense),  Liszt  the  poetic^ 
romantic,  interesting,  highly  musical^  imposing 
individuality — with  long,  shaggy  hair,  with  a 
Dante  profile,  and  with  a  captivating  personaHty. 
Words  are  far  too  poor  to  describe  his  piano  play- 
ing— incomparable  in  every  way,  the  cidmina- 
tion  of  everything  that  Pianoforte  rendering  could 
require. — What  a  grievous  pity  that  the  phono- 
graph did  not  exist  in  the  years  1840,  1850,  to 
receive  his  playing  and  hold  it  for  the  future 
generations  who  have  no  idea  of  real  Pianoforte 
Virtuosity.  One  must  have  heard  Chopin,  Liszt, 
Thalberg,  and  Henselt  to  know  what  genuine 
piano-playing  means.  Added  to  all  his  greatness 
as  Pianoforte  Virtuoso  Liszt  has  the  inestimable 
merit  to  have  helped  by  word,  pen,  and  his  art, 
many  an  unknown,  forgotten,  or  unappreciated 
composer  to  recognition,  and  to  have  presented 
them  to  the  public. — His  period  of  composition, 
from  1853  on — is  in  my  opinion  of  a  sorry  art, 
— In  each  of  his  compositions  "owe  marks  design 
and  is  out  of  tuneJ^     Programme-music  carried 


105 

to  the  highest  extreme,  eternal  gesticulation;  in 
his  church  music  before  God — in  his  orchestral 
works  before  the  public — in  his  song-transcriptions 
before  the  composers*),  in  his  Hungarian  Rhap- 
sodies before  the  Gipsies — enough,  always  and  in 
all  gesticulation  ^^Dans  les  arts  il  faut  faire 
grancV  was  a  common  expression  of  his,  hence 
the  sprawled  out  character  of  his  compositions. — 
His  desire  for  novelty  (a  tout  prix)  gave  him  the 
idea  of  forming  whole  compositions  of  one  and 
the  same  theme.  Sonata,  Concerto,  Symphonic 
Poem,  all  with  one  theme  only — an  absolutely 
unmusical  proceeding, — A  theme  has  a  certain 
character,  a  mood — if  it  be  forced  to  vary  its 
character  and  mood  by  change  of  tempo  and 
rhythm,  the  whole  composition  loses  in  character 
and  mood,  and  can  at  best  only  arise  to  the 
variation.     The  forms  of  composition  are  not  the 


*)  His  most  genial  transcription  is  that  of  Schubert's  Erl- 
Konig ;  the  majority  of  the  others  are  made  very  uupleasing  and 
unsatisfactory  by  the  use  of  the  melody  as  phrase  in  various 
registers,  and  by  changing  and  adding  to  it. 


106 

caprice  of  one  composer,  but  have  developed  with 
the  times  and  aesthetic  necessities.  So :  the 
Sonata  form — to  set  this  aside  means  to  extem- 
porize, a  Fantasia  is  however  not  a  Symphony, 
not  a  Sonata,  not  a  Concerto.  Architecture  is 
nearest  allied  to  music  in  its  fundamental  prin- 
ciples— can  a  formless  house  or  church  or  any 
other  building  be  imagined  ?  *)  Or  a  structure, 
where  the  fa9ade  is  a  church,  another  part  of  the 
structure  a  railway  station,  another  part  a  floral 
pavillion,  and  still  another  part  a  manufactory, 
and  so  on  ?  Hence  lack  of  form  in  music  is 
improvisation,  yes,  borders  almost  on  digression. 
Symphonic  Poems  (so  he  calls  his  orchestral 
works)  are  supposed  to  be  another  new  form  of 
art — whether  a   necessity   and  vital  enough   to 


*)  The  C-major  Fantasia  of  Schubert  is  also  built  upon  a 
theme  ;  it  is  however,  first,  a  Fantasia,  thus,  logical  freedom  in 
the  form — second,  it  is  in  four  movements  of  which  each  is 
thoroughly  worked  out  in  a  decided  mood,  hence  not  simply 
an  episodic  appearance  of  the  motives ;  a  little  Adagio  tempo, 
and  a  little  Allegro  tempo,  a  little  of  Scherzo  character,  and  a 
little  of  tragic  character,  and  so  on. 


107 

live,  time,  as'  in  the  case  of  Wagner's  Music- 
Drama,  must  teach  us.  His  orchestral  instru- 
mentation exhibits  the  same  mastery  as  that  of 
Berlioz  and  Wagner,  even  bears  their  stamp; 
ivith  that,  however,  it  is  to  be  remembered  that 
his  Pianoforte  is  the  Orchestra-Pianoforte  and  his 
Orchestra  the  Pianoforte-Orchestra,  for  the  or- 
chestral composition  sounds  like  an  instrumented 
Pianoforte  composition. — All  in  all  I  see  in 
Berlioz,  Wagner  and  Liszt,  the  Virtuoso-Com- 
poser, and  1  Avould  be  glad  to  believe  that  their 
'' breaking  aU  bounds"  may  be  an  advantage  to 
the  coming  genius.  In  the  sense  however  of 
specifically  musical  creation  I  can  recognize 
neither  one  of  them  as  a  composer — and,  in 
addition  to  this,  I  have  noticed  so  far  that  all 
three  of  them  are  wanting  in  the  chief  charm 
of  creation — the  naive — that  stamp  of  geniality 
and,  at  the  same  time,  that  proof  that  genius 
after  aU  is  a  child  of  humanity. — Their  influence 
on  the  composers  of  the  day  is  great,  but  as  I 
believe    imhealthy;     it   is   not    uninteresting    to 


108 

observe  in  this  particular  which  of  them  and 
wJiere  their  influence  is  greatest. — In  Germany- 
it  is  Wagner,  on  most  of  the  young  and  Liszt, 
on  a  very  few  of  the  instrumental  composers; 
in  France  and  Russia  only  Berlioz  and  Liszt 
and  on  the  instrumental  composers  alone,  since 
in  France  Meyerbeer  still  holds  sway;  in 
Russia  wholly  in  a  reflected  national  style ;  in 
Italy  it  is  Liszt  alone  whose  influence  has 
turned  the  young  composers  there  to  instru- 
mental composition,  a  branch  which  until  now 
seemed  opposed  to  the  nature  of  the  Italian, 
I  believe  that  this  will  finally  remain  so. 

— For  you  then  the  art  period  of  to-day  is  only 
a  transition  period  ? 

— At  best. —  Whether  it  will  develop  and  into 
whatj  time  will  teach  us — I  shall  probably  not  live 
to  see — and  so  I  weep  by  the  waters  of  Babylon, 
and  for  me  the  harp  is  silent ! 

— If  that  is  really  so,  then  you  have  eaten  of 
the  tree  of  knowledge,  and  for  that  reason  lose 
your  paradise  of  delight. 


109 

—Only  the  pleasures  of  memory  are  mine  still. 

— In  your  opinion  then,  there  is  nothing  more 
that  is  beautiful  and  great  to  await  in  music  ? 

— Who  can  undertake  to  foretell  the  future  ? — 
I  speak  only  and  alone  of  to-day. 

— But  the  living,  as  Brahms,  Dvorak,  Grieg, 
Ooldraark,  Massenet,  Saint-Saens,  Verdi,  Gounod, 
Tschaikowsky,  and  others  of  the  composers, 
Joachim,  Sarasate,  Biilow,  D'Albert,  Stockhausen, 
r.aure,  Patti,  and  others  of  the  executive  art  ? 

— "  De  vivis  nihil  nisi  bene ! "  And  besides 
the  most  of  those  you  mention  are  the  children  of 
a-n  earlier  epoch — I  mean  after-growth. 

— Well,  if  one  take  no  pleasure  in  the  music  of 
to-day,  he  can  surely  enjoy  the  older  music;  it  is 
offered  him  to-day  oftener  than  ever  and  rendered 
in  the  best  manner. 

— Often  certainly — altogether  too  often — there 
is  really  too  much  music  now-a-days! 

— Are  you  then  opposed  to  the  popularization 
of  music  ? 

— This  question  has  two  sides — each  of  which 


110 

has  its  justification — ^but  as  often  as  I  have 
thought  it  over,  I  cannot  decide  which  is  the 
better.  It  is  certainly  desirable  that  the  masses 
learn  to  know  the  master  works  of  the  art  of 
music,  hear  them  and  come  to  hear  them,  bring- 
ing with  them  some  understanding  for  them  |  for 
this  it  is  necessary  to  found  Garden  and  Popular 
Concerts,  etc.,  to  found  Music  Schools,  Choral 
Societies,  Philharmonic  Societies,  Symphony  Con- 
certs, and  so  on — ^but  on  the  other  hand  music 
demands,  I  feel,  a  consecration,  a  cult  in  a  temple 
to  which  only  the  initiated  have  entrance;  she 
requires  that  she  be  the  chosen  of  the  elect,, 
enough,  to  hold  some  mystery  in  herself  and  for 
the  outer  world — which  of  these  two  views  is  the 
right  one? 

— I  would  not  like,  for  example,  to  hear  the 
9th  Symphony,  or  the  last  String  Quartette,  or 
the  last  Pianoforte  Sonatas  by  Beethoven  in  a 
Grarden — or  Popular  Concert — and  not  at  all  for 
fear  that  it  would  not  be  understood,  but  for  fear 
it  might  perhaps  be  understood ! 


Ill 

— You  really  take  too  much  delight  in  para- 
doxes. 

— I  am  also  not  clear  whether  the  Art  Museums- 
(in  a  real  sense)  are  or  have  been  an  education 
of  the  people  for  the  plastic  art,  or  whether  they 
are  not  and  always  were  merely  educational 
institutes  for  the  intellectual  part  of  the  com- 
munity. 

— I  believe  that  for  the  people  the  art  of  musie 
is  subject  to  other  educational  laws  than  those 
of  the  plastic  arts,  and  hence  cannot  be  compared 
with  them. 

— ^Well,  we  will  leave  this  question  altogether 
unsolved. — I  am  however  in  all  earnestness  of 
the  opinion  that  on  account  of  the  hearing  and 
making  of  too  much  music,  for  example,  it  is 
very  difficult  for  a  composer  of  to-day  to  con- 
centrate himself  (one  of  the  principal  necessities 
in  creating)  j  for  he  is  obliged  to  hear  and  play  sa 
much  of  the  music  of  others,  not  his  own,  is  obliged, 
still,  after  an  exciting  winter  season  and  the  ever 
increasing  throng  of  springtide  music  festival«i 


112 

■(of  the  public  I  will  say  nothing,  and  can  only- 
wonder  at  its  enormous  love  for  music !)  to  rush 
away  tired,  mayhap  even  iU,  to  a  summer-resort; 
to  listen  three  times  a  day  there  to  a  concert!-— 
and  if  these  programmes  were  only  made  up  of 
Dances,  Folk-songs,  Military  Music  and  the  like 
— ^but  no,  it  is  again  the  Tannhauser  Overture, 
the  Feuer-Zauber,  Mozart,  Weber,  and  so  on. 

— But  the  public  is  not  composed  solely  of 
musicians  who  should  not  and  do  not  wish  to 
hear  music. 

— For  this  reason  one  seldom  returns  from  a 
summer-resort  really  benefited. — But  let  us  again 
resume  our  conversation  seriously.  You  spoke 
before  of  the  best  interpretation  of  the  master 
works  now-a-days — I  have  my  doubts  of  that — 
the  interpreters  of  to-day  (Director  and  Virtuoso) 
delight  especiaUy  in  a  capricious  interpretation 
of  the  classical  works  (for  which  Wagner  and 
Liszt  are  most  to  blame) — change  of  tempo,  holds, 
ritardandos,  stringendos,  crescendos,  and  so  on,  not 
written   by  the   composer. — Pianoforte    editions, 


113 

with  effect-expression  (?)  revisions  of  pianoforte 
compositions  (Henselt,  Tausig),  adding  Or- 
chestra to  Pianoforte  compositions,  melting  two 
compositions  into  one  (Liszt),  re-instrumentation 
of  Chopin's  Pianoforte  Concertos  (diverse),  yes, 
even  "  horribile  dictu "  adding  instruments  to 
Beethoven's  9th  Symphony  (Wagner!)  ignoring 
the  signs  of  repetition  and  much  besides. — ^In  the 
last  particular  it  is  really  astounding  that  pro- 
fessional musicians  can  give  themselves  to  such 
an  unmusical  proceeding!  In  Haydn,  Mozart, 
and  especially  Beethoven  the  signs  of  repetition 
are  in  no  case  caprice,  but  on  the  contrary  an 
integral  part  of  the  structure  of  the  composition. 
Perhaps  in  the  Adagio  of  Mozart's  Jupiter  Sym- 
phony, and  in  the  repetition  of  the  Scherzo  after 
the  Trio  in  Beethoven's  9th  Symphony  only,  are 
the  signs  of  repetition  of  a  questionable  nature 
(in  Schubert,  Avith  exception  of  the  Scherzos, 
they  also  generally  bear  the  usually-accepted 
character)  but,  for  example,  in  the  Trio  in 
D-major,  in  the  last  movement  of  the  F-minor 


114 


Sonata,  op.  57,  in  the  second  movement  of  the 
B-flat  major  Trio,  and  above  all,  in  the  String 
Quartettes  and  Symphonies  of  Beethoven  their 
omission  is  absolutely  a  "crimen  laesionis  majes- 
tatis"!  Cutting,  (customary  so  often,  in  the 
works  of  Schubert  especially)  belongs  to  the 
same  category  of  crime.  How  shall  one  describe 
the  way  in  which  the  latter  is  done  in  the  Operas, 
the  Directors  always  justifying  themselves  by 
saying  that  it  is  done  for  the  good  of  the  com- 
position and  the  composer — ^that  seems  to  me 
like  the  theory  of  the  Inquisition,  which  com- 
pelled a  man  to  be  burned  alive  "iw  order  to  save 
his  souV 

— It  is  not  however  to  be  denied  that  many  an 
opera  has  gained  by  cutting  ? 

— Without  doubt,  but  this  must  be  done  by  the 
composer  himself,  or  not  without  his  acquiescence. 

— There  are  still  several  questions  in  regard  to 
the  art  of  music  upon  which  I  should  like  to  have 
your  opinion — will  you  give  it  to  me  I 

— Willingly — of  course  entirely  uncondition- 


115 

ally,  not  as  a  law,  but  according  to  the  best  of 
my  knowledge  and  feeling. 

— ^I  hear  so  much  said  about  the  subjective  and 
objective  in  interpretation — which  is  the  better? 

— I  am  wholly  at  a  loss  to  understand  what  is 
meant  by  the  objective  in  interpretation  in  any 
case. 

Every  interpretation,  if  it  is  made  by  a  person 
and  not  by  a  machine  is  eo  ipso  subjective.  To 
do  justice  to  the  object  (the  composition)  is  the 
law  and  duty  of  every  interpreter,  but  of  course 
each  one  in  his  own  way,  that  is,  subjectively — 
and  how  is  any  other  imaginable  ?  There  are 
no  two  persons  of  the  same  character,  the  same 
nervous  system,  the  same  physical  complexion; 
even  the  difference  of  touch  of  the  piano  players, 
of  the  tone  of  Violin  and  'Cello  players,  and  the 
quality  of  the  voice  in  singers,  of  the  nature  of 
the  Director  effect  the  subjective  in  interpretation. 

— Should  the  conception  of  a  composition  be 
objective,  there  could  be  only  one  right  one,  and 
all  executants  would  be  obliged  to  accommodate 


116 

themselves  to  it — ^what  would  an  executive  artist 
be  in  that  easel     A  monkey? 

— Of  course^  if  a  subjective  interpretation 
makes  an  Allegro  of  an  Adagio  or  a  Funeral 
March  of  a  Scherzo  it  becomes  nonsense — but  to 
render  an  Adagio  in  a  given  tempo  according  to 
one's  own  feeling  cannot  be  called  doing  injustice 
to  the  object. — Should  it  be  different  in  the  inter- 
pretation of  music  than  it  is  in  the  Art  of  Acting? 
Is  there  only  one  correct  art  of  Hamlet  or  King 
Lear  ?  and  must  each  actor  only  ape  one  Hamlet, 
or  one  King  Lear  in  order  to  do  justice  to  the 
subject?  Ergo,  I  can  only  allow  of  the  subjective 
in  the  interpretation  of  music. 

— What  is  your  opinion  of  our  young  Russian 
school  ? 

— It  isj  in  instrumental  music,  the  finiit  of  the 
influence  of  Berlioz  and  Liszt  with  the  additional 
influence  of  the  pianoforte  compositions  of  Schu- 
mann and  Chopin,  and  in  general  an  efibrt  in  the 
direction  of  the  reflective-national.  Its  creation  is 
also  based  on  a  perfect  control  of  technic  and  on 


117 

masterly  coloring — but  also  on  an  entire  absence  of 
outline  and  the  previously-reigning  want  of  form. 
— Taking  Glinka,  who  has  written  a  few  orchestral 
works  on  Folk-songs  and  Folk-dances  (Kamarins- 
kaja,  Jota  Aragonesa,  Nuit  a  Madrid,  as  model), 
they  write  too,  mostly  on  Folk-songs  and  Folk- 
dances,  giving  evidence  thereby  of  their  own  lack 
of  invention,  yet  cloak  their  works  with  the  name 
"National  Art,"  "New  School,"  and  so  on. — 
Whether  we  are  to  await  anything  from  the  future 
in  this  direction  I  do  not  know;  I  do  not  wish  to 
despair  entirely — for  I  believe  that  the  peculiarity 
in  melody,  rhythm,  and  in  the  musical  character 
of  the  Russian  Folk-music  gives  promise  of  a  new 
harvest  for  music  in  general  (I  consider  the  Ori- 
ental music  also  capable  of  as  much);  there  are 
besides  a  few  representatives  of  this  new  school 
not  without  high  musical  endowment. 

— In  all  that  we  have  said  heretofore,  you  have 
only  mentioned  the  names  of  women  in  speaking 
of  the  art  of  singing,  was  that  forgetfulness  or 
intentional  ? 


118 

— The  growing  increase  of  women  in  the  art 
of  music,  in  instrumental  execution  as  well  as  in 
composition  (I  exclude  the  art  of  singing,  the  field 
in  which  she  has  always  accomplished  so  much 
of  excellence)  dates  from  the  second  half  of  our 
century — I  consider  this  excess  also  as  one  of 
the  signs  of  the  downfall  of  our  art. 

— Woman  is  wanting  in  two  principal  requisites 
for  the  executive  art  as  well  as  for  the  creative 
— Subjectivity  and  Initiative. — They  cannot  raise 
themselves  as  executants  above  the  objective 
(imitation) — for  the  subjective  they  are  wanting 
in  courage  and  conviction.  For  musical  creation 
they  lack  depth,  concentration,  the  power  of 
thought,  breadth  of  feeliag,  freedom  of  stroke, 
and  so  on. — It  is  enigmatical  to  me  that  exactly 
music — the  noblest,  most  beautiful,  most  refined, 
soulful,  loving  art  that  the  mind  of  man  has 
created,  is  so  unattainable  to  woman,  who  is  still 
a  combination  of  all  these  qualities !  *)     In  poetry, 

* )  And  the  same  of  Architecture — another  proof  of  the  rela- 
tionship existing  between  the  two  arts. 


119 

literature,  painting,  and  all  the  other  arts,  even 
in  the  sciences,  she  has  accomplished  much! 

The  two  feelings  most  natural  to  her:  her  love 
to  man  and  her  tenderness  to  her  children,  have 
never  found,  from  her,  their  echo  in  music.  I 
know  no  love-duet  composed  hj  a  woman,  and 
no  cradle-song. — I  do  not  say  that  there  are  none 
in  existence,  but  that  none  composed  by  a  woman 
has  had  sufficient  artistic  value  to  be  stamped  as 
type. 

— That  is  not  flattering  for  our  sex. — If  it  be 
the  case,  however,  we  must  comfort  ourselves 
with  the  hope  that,  as  women  have  devoted  them- 
selves in  such  quantity  to  music  of  late,  they 
may  in  time  attain  and  give  evidence  of  corre- 
sponding quality.  Perhaps  the  next  Beethoven 
and  the  next  Liszt  mav  be  women ! 

— I  shall  not  live  to  see  it — hence  I  will  not 
try  to  rob  you  of  the  hope. 

— I  should  like  to  know  your  views  in  regard 
to  Music  Schools  and  Conservatories — ^the  advan- 
tages of  which  are  doubted  by  so  many,  yes,  the 


120 

very  existence   of  which  is    entirely  discounte- 
nanced by  others. 

— There  you  touch  a  tender  spot  for  me — I 
myself  have  been  founder  of  such  institutions. — 
It  is  not  to  be  denied  that  our  great  masters  are 
not  the  offspring  of  Schools  of  Music — ^but  still 
that  does  not  prove  that  Music  Schools  are  un- 
necessary, and  that  they  have  not  been  of  great 
value  to  the  art. — The  principal  object  of  the 
Music  School  was  always  and  must  always  be  to 
increase  the  average  number  of  well-schooled 
musicians.  The  immense  spread  of  the  art  of 
music  makes  the  Music  School  a  demand  also, 
yes,  a  necessity.  When  we  think  what  a  host 
(Choruses,  Orchestras,  Soloists,  Directors,  Music 
Teachers,  and  so  on)  the  Art  of  Music  requires 
now-a-days  we  must  acknowledge  that  private 
instruction  could  not  possibly  meet  the  require- 
ments. Besides,  the  Music  School  has  advantages 
in  itself  that  are  not  to  be  undervalued — ^the 
musical  atmosphere  of  the  school  alone  is  of  great 
advantage  to  a  disciple  of  music — added  to  this 


121 

the  stimulation  which  belongs  to  aU  class  instruc- 
tion, and  always  acts  as  an  incentive  and  so  on. 
That  Music  Schools  do  not  always  fulfill  their  task 
is  no  doubt  true,  in  my  opinion  for  two  reasons : 
first,  for  lack  of  sufficient  money,  when  the  school 
is  not  a  government  institution,  and  second, 
because  the  programme  of  instruction  is  made  up 
too  exclusively  of  the  technical,  that  is,  not  enough 
of  the  ideal  and  neglects  the  practical  education 
of  the  pupil.  If  the  school  be  a  government  insti- 
tution, the  first  point  is  probably  solved,  but  then 
comes  the  system  of  protection,  philanthropic 
standpoints,  mostly  false  ideas  of  art,  disregard 
of  the  most  important  and  ideal  in  the  count  of 
cost,  so  that  the  institution  may  be  very  easily 
turned  into  a  Music-factorj^,  or  a  Music-barracks, 
or  even  into  a  Music-hospital. — If  the  Music 
School  be  a  private  undertaking,  the  money 
question  is  apt  to  play  such  a  weighty  role  that 
one  can  scarcely  speak  of  the  interests  or  demands 
of  art. — This  second  point  deserves  very  earnest 
consideration — especially  in  reference  to  the  final 


122 

examination. — Generally  a  pupU  of  the  Music 
School  during  the  whole  time  spent  there  is  drOled 
technically  by  his  teacher  to  such  a  degree  that  he 
almost  always  makes  a  good  final  examination,  and 
so  receives  the  diploma  accordingly — he  is,  how- 
ever, rarely  ripe  for  independent  work,  and  there- 
fore receives  the  slight  of  the  public,  and  with 
him  also  the  institution  where  he  received  his 
musical  education.  This  could  be  remedied,  in 
my  opinion,  in  the  following  manner: — Give  the 
pupil,  perhaps  two  months  before  his  examina- 
tion, a  number  of  pieces  of  diiFerent  composers, 
of  dififerent  character,  of  difi'erent  epochs  of  art 
(Concerto,  Chamber  Music,  and  Solo)  for  the 
Pianoforte  for  example,  from  Scarlatti  on  until 
and  including  Liszt,  which  he  must  be  required 
to  study  alone  J  that  is  without  the  assistance  of  his 
teacher  (of  course  one  must  be  able  to  depend 
entirely  upon  the  honor  of  both  teacher  and 
pupil !  ?) — in  the  same  way  for  singing,  for  string 
•or  wind-instruments,  and  for  each  and  every 
branch  of  the  profession. — If  the  pupil  absolve 


123 

such  an  examination  with  honor,  he,  his  teacher 
^nd  the  institution  may  rest  assured — the  ripeness 
of  the  pupil  is  proven,  the  paedagogic  qualities 
of  the  teacher  exhibited,  and  the  value  of  the 
school  no  more  a  question — that  each  has  fulfilled 
his  task. 

— I  once  met  a  pupil  of  a  well  known  con- 
servatory, shortly  after  his  examination,  who 
played  me  his  examination  piece  (the  first  solo!) 
from  Hummel's  B-minor  Concerto,  and  that  very 
iv^ell, — but  who  could  play  me  neither  its  •  first 
tutti  nor  one  measure  beyond  the  solo  he  had 
learned ! 

— I  too  have  had  a  remarkable  experience  in 
this  regard! 

— When  I  hear  piano  playing  I  think  how 
happy  the  earlier  composers  would  have  been  to 
have  kno^vn  the  instrument  of  to-day! 

— I  believe  that  the  instruments  of  all  times 
must  have  had  tone-coloring  and  effects  that  we 
cannot  produce  on  the  Pianoforte  of  to-day. 
That  the  compositions  were  always  intended  for 


124 

the  character  of  the  inctrument  in  use,  and  only 
upon  such  could  be  heard  fully  as  intended,  and 
therefore  played  upon  the  pianoforte  of  to-day 
they  would  perhaps  be  heard  to  disadvantage. 
If  Ph.  Em.  Bach  could  write  a  book  on  the 
expression  in  Pianoforte  playing  it  must  have 
been  possible  to  interpret  with  expression  on  the 
Piano  of  that  day,  but  we  cannot  imagine  it 
possible  on  the  instruments  now  known  to  us  as 
Clavecin,  Clavichord,  Clavicembalo,  Spinet,  etc.^ 
and  he  speaks  no  doubt  of  an  instrument  knowTi 
to  his  father  also. — We  can  at  any  rate  know 
nothing  decidedly  of  the  instruments  of  that 
day;  even  those  to  be  found  in  the  Museums  of 
London,  Paris,  Brussels,  and  so  on,  give  us  no 
idea,  since  time  would  destroy  the  tone  of  a 
piano  entirely  beyond  recognition,  and  besides 
to  us,  the  most  important  point,  tlic  manner  of 
playing  these  instruments  is  wholly  unknown. 
It  is  strange  how  little  the  professional  makers 
(instrument  makers)  know  of  these  things ! 

— In  London  I  attended  a  lecture  on  this  sub- 


125 

ject,  where  a  professional  declared  that  J.  S. 
Bach  wrote  his  Pianoforte  compositions,  among 
them  the  Chromatic  Fantasia  for  the  Spinet — 
is  it  possible  to  imagine  this  ?  Even  the  recita- 
tive in  it  would  brand  this  statement  as  false — 
but  in  addition,  such  compositions  as  the  Prelude 
m  F-major  in  Part  II.  of  his  Wohltemperirte 
Clavier,  or  the  Sarabande  in  G-minor  or  D-minor 
from  the  English  suite!  Are  the  four  to  eight 
measures  prolongation  of  a  tone  written  for  the 
eye  alone  f  There  must  have  been  attachments 
to  the  Spinet  of  that  day  (now  unknown)  which 
made  it  possible  to  sustain  a  tone,  as  on  the  har- 
monium of  to-day. 

— Just  so  I  do  not  believe,  as  is  generally  said 
to-day,  that  Mozart  wrote  for  the  Spinet — the 
orchestration  of  his  Pianoforte  Concertos  makes 
that  improbable,  also  the  five  octave  compass  of 
his  Pianoforte  compositions. — It  is  possible  that 
he  had  a  Spinet  in  his  work  room,  but  publicly 
he  must  have  played  upon  a  beautiful  toned 
Grand  Piano.     The  pinched,  short,  small  tone  of 


126 

the  Spinet  known  to  us  would  not  allow  the 
brilliancy  of  the  passage  or  the  wonderful  charm 
of  his  melody  in  his  compositions,  it  must  be, 
then,  that  the  instrument  a  hundred  years  ago 
had  an  entirely  different  tone  from  the  one  we 
hear  from  it  to-day. 

— ^In  your  opinion  then,  the  Pianoforte  of  our 
day  is  no  advance! 

— ^No  advance  in  the  sense  of  works  before  the 
time  of  Beethoven. — I  would  like  to  recommend 
a  different  use  (touch  and  pedal)  of  the  Pianoforte 
of  our  day,  in  playing  the  compositions  of  different 
epochs.  So  for  example,  I  would  play  a  piece  of 
Haydn  or  Mozart  on  the  instrument  of  our  day, 
especially  in  ^' forte"  with  the  left  pedal — because 
their  ^  forte"  has  not  the  character  of  the  Beethoven 
^forte"  especially  not  of  the  latest  composers. 
Playing  Handel  and  especially  Bach,  I  would  try 
by  means  of  variety  of  touch  and  change  of  pedal 
to  register,  that  is,  give  them  throughout  an 
organ-like  character.  Hummel  I  would  try  to 
play  with  scholastic,  short,  clear  touch  and  very 


127 

little  pedal.  Weber  and  Mendelssohn  with  very 
brilliant  execution  and  pedal — Weber  In  his 
Sonatas  and  Concertstuck  with  operatic,  dramatic, 
and  Mendelssohn  in  his  Songs  without  Words  with 
lyric  character. — Beethoven,  Schubert,  Schu- 
mann, Chopin,  and  of  course  the  later  composers, 
require  all  the  resources  imaginable  in  O'or  instru- 
ment of  to-day. 

— ^I  must  confess,  that  to  me  also  the  com- 
positions of  Haydn  and  Mozart  sound  too  strong 
and  full  played  upon  the  Pianoforte  of  to-day. 

— I  go  so  far,  that  I  do  not  like  to  hear  their 
string-quartettes  played  with  a  large  tone  and 
broad  bowing,  neither  do  I  like  to  hear  their 
Symphonies  by  an  orchestra  of  great  number — 
in  short,  my  desire  in  the  interpretation  would  be 
variety  in  the  tone  coloring  for  the  different 
epochs  of  art. 

— You  speak  of  organ  registration  for  the 
Pianoforte — how  do  you  mean  that  ? 

— Of  course  merely  in  the  sense  of  suggestion, 
by  means  of  change  of  pedal  and  powerful  or 


128 

light  touch. — In  doing  so  I  imagine  the  places 
^hich  demand  the  pedal,  played  with  the  right 
pedal  of  the  Pianoforte,  and  that  not  in  the  sense 
of  the  theoretical  requirements  of  the  harmony, 
but  in  the  sense  of  the  weight  of  the  organ 
pedal,  that  is,  often  without  lifting  the  pedal  in 
the  change  of  harmony. 

— Still,  that  could  only  be  applicable  to  Organ 
compositions  arranged  for  the  Piano,  since  no 
Organ  character  is  required  in  the  compositions 
written  by  Bach  for  the  Piano. 

— It  seems  to  me  as  though  Bach  thought  of 
the  Organ  in  everything  he  wrote  with  the  excep- 
tion of  his  Dances,  and  perhaps  the  Preludes  (and 
even  among  these  there  are  many  which  have  an 
organ-like  character);  but,  as  a  matter  of  course, 
what  he  has  written  for  the  Pianoforte  must  be 
played  upon  the  Pianoforte — it  is  only  that  I 
cannot  dismiss  the  idea  that  his  Piano  must  have 
had  attachments  that  made  it  possible  to  vary  the 
•quality  of  tone,  hence  this  continual  desire  for 
"^^registering"  when  I  play  these  compositions. — 


129 

I  confess  that  this  is  a  musical  paradox  of  mine 
and — "  peccavit." 

— Is  it  really  so  entirely  impossible  to  find  out 
anything  reliable  in  regard  to  the  manner  of 
interpretation  of  the  older  compositions! 

— ^Unfortunately  the  composers  before  Haydn 
have  left  us  entirely  in  the  dark  as  to  their 
intentions  in  the  rendering  of  their  compositions; 
neither  tempo  nor  shading  has  been  indicated  by 
them  (Ph.  Em.  Bach  has  even  writtten  only  the 
upper  voice  and  the  bass  in  his  Pianoforte  com- 
positions), they  have  left  it  then  altogether  to  our 
understanding  and  caprice,  and  by  so  doing  have 
created  a  truly  chaotic  state  of  affairs. 

— This  has,  however,  been  ameliorated  in  later 
times  by  classical  editions  edited  by  distinguished 
musicians  ! 

— Regarding  this  I  expressed  my  opinion 
several  years  ago  in  a  letter  to  the  music  pub- 
lisher, Bartholf  Senfi";  the  evil  has  rather  in- 
creased than  diminished.  One  can  scarcely 
obtain   a    composition   by   these   masters — until 


130 

and  including  Chopin,  that  is  not  published  after 
the  manner  of  some  famed  musician.  If  after 
the  publication  of  the  large  editions  by  Bach, 
Handel,  Mozart,  Beethoven,  etc.,  the  publisher 
would  only  publish  the  pieces  singly^  the  public 
would  be  correspondingly  thankful!  Now,  if  one 
wishes  to  know  how  a  fugue  of  the  Wohltem- 
perirte  Clavier  looks  in  the  original  edition  he 
must  find  it  in  the  Library  Book  X  of  the  Bach 
edition.  The  public  derives  no  benefit  from  thi& 
and  must  content  itself  with  the  edition  of  a 
famous  musician;  of  what  a  problematic  nature 
these  editions  are  we  have  sufficient  proof  in 
Czemy's  edition  of  the  Wohltemperirte  Clavier. 

— But  exactly  his  edition  has  been  regarded  as 
a  model  for  many  years  ? 

— Yet,  in  my  opinion,  it  is  so  unhappy.  I 
have  never  been  able  to  reconcile  myself  either 
to  the  indications  of  tempo  or  to  the  shading  in 
the  Preludes  or  in  the  Fugues. 

— A  very  few  examples  will  be  sufficient. — 
To  give  the  fugue  in  C-minor,  Part  I.,  a  delicate^ 


131 

staccato  character  where  immediately  after  (the 
ftigue  is  one  of  the  shorter  ones)  a  close  enters 
whose  import  would  require  a  32-foot  Organ  is, 
to  say  the  least,  very  questionable;  to  give 
the  theme  of  the  succeeding  fiigue  in  C  sharp 
major  a  lively  character  by  making  the  eighth 
staccato  is  again  questionable,  for  the  whole  fugue 
is  of  lyric  import  and  legato  character.  The  nota- 
tion: two  notes  legato  and  two  staccato  in  the 
theme  of  the  fugue  in  G  minor,  Part  I.,  is  really 
too  much  against  reason,  since  by  this  means  it 
gains  a  scherzo  character,  while  it  plainly  (as  the 
minor  key  indicates)  is  of  a  melancholy,  com- 
plaining, singing  character. — To  give  the  Prelude 
in  F  minor  in  Part  II.  a  slow  tempo  is  also  singu- 
lar, for  from  the  fifth  measure  a  figure  is  used 
which  in  a  slow  tempo  would  be  very  tiresome — 
is  the  latter  even  imaginable  in  Bach  ?  and  in  the 
same  manner,  many  other  things.  In  this  I  do 
not  mean  in  any  way  to  call  into  question  or  de- 
preciate the  pedagogic  importance  of  Czemy,  I 
myself  reckon  him  as  one  of  the  very  best  in  this 


132 

respect — his  edition  however  seems  to  me  abso- 
lutely false.  It  is  true  that  our  beautiful,  divine 
art  has  this  misfortune  that  it  cannot  make  two 
musicians  the  same  in  feeling.  And  how  differ- 
ently musicians  feel  is  proved  sufficiently  in  the 
Prelude  in  C  major  of  Part  I.  of  the  same  Wohl- 
temperirte  Clavier. — To  me  it  is  the  real  modu- 
latory Pianoforte  prelude,  a  chain  of  broken 
chords  (Arpeggi)  to  be  played  in  quick  tempo 
with  brilliant  touch — to  many  others  a  dreamy 
piece,  to  be  executed  with  soft  shading. — 
Since  Gounod  used  it  as  a  foundation  for  his 
"Ave  Maria"  many  are  of  the  opinion  that 
without  the  melody  it  has  also  a  religious  char- 
acter, etc. 

— This  is  indeed  sad  for  the  classic  compo- 
sitions I 

— O  very,  very  sad,  unless  an  academic  edition 
of  their  works  should  be  published  soon,  in  which 
tempo,  marks  of  expression,  character  of  the 
composition,  art  of  embellishment,  etc.,  are 
academically  decided. 


133 

— To  the  best  of  my  knowledge  Ph.  Em.  Bach 
has  written  a  treatise  on  embellishments  I 

— Yes,  he  has,  but  first,  he  had  in  view  the 
manner  of  rendering  the  embellishments  for  the 
instruments  of  that  day;  whether  this  would  be 
applicable  now-a-days  to  our  instruments  of  the 
same  character  is  very  questionable — second,  the 
composers  of  that  day  did  not  write  their 
embellishments  iu  one  and  the  same  manner, 
and  Ph.  Em.  Bach  wrote  his  treatise  merely  for 
the  embellishments  in  his  father's  works, — third, 
there  are  to-day  not  two  musicians  of  the  same 
opinion  in  regard  to  the  rendering  of  embellish- 
ments. 

— In  such  a  condition  of  affairs  an  academic 
edition  of  composers  until  and  including  Beethoven 
at  least  is  a  great  need. 

— If  musicians  might  only  agree  on  any  one 
question  in  music ! ! 

— I  have  heard  that  you  do  not  agree  with  the 
programmes  of  the  Symphony  Concerts. 

— I  confess  that  the   '^tutti  fruttP^  character 


134 

usual  in  the  arrangement  of  such  programmes  is 
disagreeable  to  me.  A  Symphony  by  Haydn,  and 
immediately  following  ^^Tannhauser-Overture" 
by  Wagner,  or  the  reverse,  is  offensive  to  me  5 
and  that  not  on  account  of  the  preference  for  one 
composer  or  another,  or  one  work  and  another, 
but  on  account  of  the  glaring  difference  in  tone- 
coloring. — I  would  prefer  a  whole  programme 
(Overture,  Aria,  Concerto,  Songs,  Solo,  Sym- 
phony) by  one  and  the  same  composer. 

— Is  there  one,  Beethoven  perhaps  excepted, 
who  would  dare  put  the  patience  of  the  public  to 
such  a  test? 

— I  do  not  speak  of  Operas,  in  which  subject 
and  scenery  might  make  amends  for  the  occa- 
sional tedium  of  the  music ;  nor  of  sacred  or 
profane  Oratorios  and  Cantatas  where  the  text 
helps  the  interest. 

— But  we  go  to  hear  a  lecture  on  a  certain 
theme,  and  whether  one  agrees  with  the  lecturer 
or  not  he  listens  to  him.  We  visit  too  the 
Atelier  of  a  painter  or  sculptor,  the  objects  there 


135 

may  not  please  us  altogether,  but  we  look  at 
them. — So  it  must  be  in  the  case  of  a  composer. 

— If,  however,  the  listening  to  the  different 
works  of  one  composer  is  not  practicable  I  would 
at  least  recommend  the  division  into  two  epochs  j 
the  epoch  from  Palestrina  to  Schumann  and 
Chopin  inclusive,  and  the  epoch  from  Berlioz 
to  the  composers  of  the  day*)  inclusive,  and  in 
this  way  include  in  each  series  of  Subscription- 
Concerts  a  Concerto  of  the  first  and  a  concerto  of 
the  second  epoch. 

— To  the  best  of  my  knowledge  you  are  also 
opposed  to  the  customary  placing  of  the  orchestra? 

— The  placing  of  the  orchestra  is  a  question 
not  solved  so  far — ^the  Symphony  requires  one 
placing,  the  Oratorio  another,  the  Opera  again 
another.  It  has  always  seemed  to  me,  that  in 
the  Symphony  Concerts,  in  placing  the  I.  violins 


*)  I  reckon  the  composers  Raff,  Gade,  Brahms,  Bruch, 
Goldmark,  etc.,  as  belonging  to  the  first  epoch,  first  on  account 
of  the  character  of  their  creations,  and  second,  on  account  of 
their  musical  training. 


136 

to  the  left  and  the  11.  violins  to  the  right  of 
the  director,  the  listeners  on  the  left  hear  too 
little  and  the  listeners  on  the  right  too  much  of 
the  second  voice.  I  have  attempted  (the  orchestra 
always  grumbling)  placing  the  string  quartette 
in  plenum  on  both  sides  of  the  Director,  that  is, 
the  second  violins  next  to  the  first  ascending  the 
estrade,  and  then  the  violas,  then  'ceUi,  then  con- 
trabass! on  the  left  of  the  estrade;  and  in  the  same 
manner  again  the  first,  second  violas,  etc.,  on  the 
right  side  of  the  estrade, — ^the  wind  instruments 
from  the  flutes  and  oboes  on  to  the  trombones,  in 
the  middle  of  the  estrade,  ascending  the  estrade 
from  the  director,  and  above  these  also  the  tim- 
pani and  other  percussion  instruments. — I  was 
told  the  sound  was  much  more  satisfactory  and 
beautiful  to  the  audience,  but  it  is  hard  to  root 
out  old  prejudices,  and  so  I  gave  up  this  manner 
of  placing  it. — In  chorus  too  I  think  it  best  to 
place  aU  four  chorus  voices  on  each  side  of  the 
estrade — ^in  double  choruses  it  appeared  to  me  a 
matter  of  course,  but  in  this  too  I  met  with  un- 


137 

willingness  and  opposition  !  There  is  still  another 
position  that  I  cannot  understand,  that  is  the 
position  of  the  Director  in  the  Opera.  If  he  would 
do  his  task  justice,  he  must  be  able  to  make  him- 
self felt  on  the  stage,  and  at  the  same  time  in  the 
orchestra ;  a  glance  or  a  wave  of  the  hand  is  often 
sufficient  to  assist  the  singer,  be  it  in  tempo  or  in 
musical  expression  if  he  should  accidentally  lose 
his  way — and  how  is  that  possible  if  the  Director 
has  his  stand  not  at  the  footlights  of  the  stage  (as 
formerly)  but  at  the  edge  of  the  orchestra  (as 
now)?  There  he  can  at  most  merely  give  the 
orchestra  the  necessary  hint,  the  artists  on  the 
stage  are  entirely  forsaken  by  the  Director — 
that  is  left  entirely  to  themselves.  To  be  sure 
in  view  of  the  demands  made  on  the  singer  of 
to-day  (good  memorizing,  correct  intonation,  and 
clear  declamation)  where  singing,  phrasing,  and 
technic  and  many  other  things  are  scarce  given  a 
thought,  the  Director  is  not  of  importance  or  use 
for  the  stage ! 

— What  do  you  think  of  musical  prodigies  ? 


138 


— ^It  is  true  that  the  most  of  our  heroes  of 
music  have  been  prodigies — but  their  number  is 
still  a  very  small  one  in  comparison  with  the 
numberless  talented  children  who  almost  daily 
appear,  and  of  whom  later  nothing  or  very  little  is 
known.  These  children  generally  exhibit  astound- 
ing musical  talent  from  a  very  early  age,  but 
there  comes  a  time  (with  boys  from  the  15th  to 
the  20th  year,  girls  from  the  14th  to  the  17th 
year)  when  the  musical  gift  weakens  or  sleeps 
altogether;  and  only  those  who  are  able  to 
cross  this  Rubicon,  will  then  become  real  artists. 
Of  such  the  number  is  very  small. 

— There  is  still  another  question,  that  interests 
me  very  much,  and  about  which  I  am  not  clear — 
What  is  the  church  style  in  music  ? 

— ^^Bas  will  ich  Sie  gleich  sagen,  meine  Grutste, 
das  iveiss  ich  Sie  selber  nichtJ^  (That  I  will  tell 
you  at  once,  -my  good  friend,  I  don't  know  it 
myself." — )  After  all  how  do  you  mean  that,  do 
you  speak  of  prayer  set  to  music  or  of  com- 
positions with  sacred  subject  or  with  sacred  text? 


139 

— WeU,  both. 

— ^It  is  not  possible,  in  my  opinion,  to  have  one 
church  style  for  all  the  Christian  world. — The 
southerner  feels  in  prayer  diiferent  from  the 
northerner,  the  Catholic  other  than  the  Protestant, 
these  again  different  from  the  orthodox,  etc.  To 
me  the  singing  of  a  choral  in  unison  by  the  con- 
gregation supported  by  the  organ,  as  harmonic 
Ijase,  as  it  is  done  in  the  Protestant  churches  is 
the  most  sympathetic,  in  a  musical  sense. — Part 
singing  has  already  within  itself  even  more  the 
character  of  an  artistic  performance,  hence  ceases 
to  be  individual  prayer — but  I  can  well  under- 
stand that  the  Catholic,  for  the  splendor  of  his 
service,  requires  Organ,  Chorus,  Solo,  Orchestra, 
etc.*) — In  the  church  compositions  of  our  great 
masters,  it  would  be  difficult  to  discover  a  stan- 
dard or  prescribed  church  style,  it  seems  to  me. 
— Take  for  example,  the  "Missa  Papae  Marcelli" 
of  Palestrina,  the  "  Messe  "  in  B-minor  of  Bach, 

*)  The  Greek-orthodox  service  allows  of  no  instrument,  and 
Is  in  musical  expression  merely  of  a  choral  (a  capella)  nature. 


140 

and  the  ''Missa  Solemnis"  of  Beethoven,  which 
of  the  three  is  really  in  prescribed  church  style  ? 
or,  instead  of  the  Mass  of  Palestrina  (since  it  is  a 
capella  while  the  other  two  are  with  orchestra 
accompaniment),  the  Requiem  of  Mozart,  can  we 
speak  here  of  a  strict,  recognized,  prescribed 
church  style  f  All  these  compositions  are  serioua 
in  character,  with  sacred  texts  and  of  unusual 
beauty,  and  that  is  all.  Or  ought  the  fugue  and 
the  polyphonic  treatment  of  the  voices  alone  dis- 
tinguish the  church  style  in  music  f  or  should 
church     style     absolutely     require     the     usual 

A men,     Hale luja,     Hosa na,    with 

several  measures  of  figuration  on  the  vowel? 
The  reason  that  in  Protestant  countries  Church 
Music  is  musically  more  earnest  than  it  is  in. 
Catholic  countries  is  that  in  Latin  countriea 
the  Opera  has  influenced  Church  Music  (that  ia 
again  only  the  unhealthy  influence  of  the  Vocal 
Virtuoso  on  the  composer),  which  it  could  not 
do  in  Protestant  countries,  because  there,  and 
even   to-day,    the    pious   Protestants    abhor   the 


141 

theatre. — I  think  it  an  error,  however,  to  condemn 
for  that  reason  the  "Stabat  Mater"  of  Rossini 
or  the  "  Messe  "  of  Verdi  in  Protestant  countries. 
— The  Protestant  may  indeed  say :  "  /  have  a 
different  feeling  "  but  not  "  that  is  bad,  because  it 
is  other  than  my  feeling  of  ivorship" 

— The  operatic  and  homophonic  in  these  com- 
positions is  to  be  condemned  at  any  rate,  from  a 
purely  artistic  standpoint,  is  it  not  f 

— Heaven  is  different  in  Palermo  than  in 
Insterburg,  and  that  explains  very  much.  As 
an  example : — A  beautiful  maiden  of  Palermo 
throws  herself  upon  her  knees  at  the  street  comer 
before  an  image  of  the  Virgin  Mary,  and  prays 
"0  Virgin  Mary,  help  me  to  win  Beppo  for  my 
husband,  if  thou  dost  I  wUl  offer  thee  my  coral 

necklace,    if    thou    wilt   not,    then " such    a 

prayer,  under  such  a  sky,  at  such  a  shrine,  I 
cannot  imagine  set  to  music  otherwise  than  with 
a  melody  in  aUegro  tempo  in  f  measure ;  but 
when  a  beautiful  maiden  of  Insterburg  turns  to 
■God  with  her  heart's  desires,  her  humility,  her 


142 

earnestness  and  her  contrition  demand  in  musical 
expression  a  melody  in  adagio  tempo  in  |^,  per- 
haps in  f  tempo. 

— Paradoxes  again ! 

— Possible,  but  is  true. 

— We  were  speaking  though  of  a  given  Latin, 
text,  of  a  Mass,  composed  by  musicians  of  differ- 
ent religions. 

— And  must  not  fail  to  consider  therefore  the 
difference  in  their  religious  feeling,  each  accord- 
ing to  the  clime,  the  training,  the  historical 
character,  the  culture-epoch,  the  tradition,  etc. 

— It  is  with  that  as  with  the  art  of  painting : 
a  picture  by  Holbein  or  by  Albrecht  Diirer  has 
another  character  than  the  same  picture  painted 
by  Leonardo  di  Vinci  or  Rafael,  or  any  other 
Italian,  and  so  too  another  character  than  the 
same  painted  by  Rubens,  Rembrandt,  etc. 

— You  spoke  in  the  beginning  of  the  historical 
events,  state  of  culture,  the  age,  echo  and  re- 
echo, etc.,  in  music,  what  connection  have  they 
with  the  terrible  events  of  our  century  ? 


143 

— You  seem  to  wish  to  carry  the  question  to- 
the  extreme,  it  could  easily  become  comic  in  that 
case,  and  still  I  hold  firmly  to  my  saying.  Yes, 
music  is  to  me  the  echo  and  re-echo  of  all  these 
— and  though  you  may  again  call  them  para- 
doxes, I  can  follow  musically  even  the  events  of 
our  century. 

— Our  century  begins  either  with  1789,  the 
French  Revolution  (musically  with  Beethoven) 
and  the  year  1815  is  to  be  looked  upon  as  the 
close  of  the  XVIII.  century :  Disappearance  of 
Napoleon  from  the  political  horizon,  the  Restora- 
tion, etc.  (musically,  the  scholastic-virtuoso  period, 
Hummel,  Moscheles,  and  others)  flourishing  of 
modem  philosophy  (third  period  of  Beethoven). 
The  July  revolution  of  1830,  Fall  of  the  Legitim- 
ists, Raising  of  the  son  of  Philip  Egalite  to  the 
throne,  the  Orleans  dynasty,  democratic  and 
constitutional  principle  in  the  foreground,  mon- 
archical principle  in  the  background,  1848  in 
sight — (Berlioz),  the  Aeolian  harp  of  the  Polish 
rebellion  of  1831  (Chopin).     Romantic  altogether 


144 


and  a  victory  over  the  pseudo-classic  (Schu- 
mann), flourishing  of  all  the  arts  and  sciences 
(Mendelssohn),  the  Triumph  of  the  Bourgeoisie, 
in  the  sense  of  material  existence,  a  shield  against 
all  disturbing  elements  of  politics  and  culture 
(Capellmeister  music);  Louis  Napoleon  becomes 
Emperor  (Liszt,  the  Virtuoso,  becomes  composer 
of  Symphonies  and  Oratorios)  his  reign  (the 
Operetta  a  branch  of  art);  the  German-Franco 
War,  Germany's  unity,  the  freedom  of  Europe 
resting  on  ten  millions  of  soldiers;  change  in  all 
formerly  accepted  political  principles  (Wagner, 
his  music-drama,  his  art  principles) ;  the  present 
condition  of  Europe,  the  awaiting  and  seeking  to 
prevent  a  frightful  collision,  uncertainty,  general 
feeling  of  unstability  in  the  politics  of  the  day 
(condition  of  music,  foreboding,  possibility  of 
downfall  in  the  art  of  music,  transition  period, 
longing  for  a  genius) ;  division  and  conflict  of  the 
ever  increasing  political  religious  social  parties 
(representatives  and  defenders  of  all  musical- 
schools-classic,  romantic,  modem  nihilist);   striv- 


145 


ing  of  diverse  nationalities  and  races  for  auton- 
omy, or  federation,  or  political  independence 
(more  and  more  striving  for  reflective  nationalism 
in  music)  and  so  on. 

— In  such  paradoxal  flight  I  cannot  possibly 
folloAv  you. 

— -But  you  must  acknowledge  that  in  all  this  a 
certain  affinity  is  not  to  be  denied. 

— From  all  that  I  have  heard  from  you  I  con- 
clude that  you  cannot  be  happy  in  your  profession 
now,  and  I  deplore  it  sincerely. — What  you 
revere  has  been;  what  is  you  do  not  revere,  and 
thus  you  find  yourself  in  complete  opposition  to 
the  reigning  taste,  to  art  critique,  the  cultivation 
of  music,  the  executive  and  creative,  to  musical 
education,  the  modem  views  of  art,  the  modern 
art  principles,  in  short  to  all  connected  with 
music.  Therefore  it  is  easy  to  understand  that 
you  with  your  criticisms,  as  your  much  lauded 
Virtuoso  with  his  technic,  "  break  all  bounds.'' 

— I  feel  that  I  shall  not  live  long  enough  now 
to  enjoy  the  coming  Bach  or  Beethoven,  and  that 


146 

is  sorrowful  to  me.  My  only  solace  is  that  I 
may  still  have  the  same  enthusiasm  for  an  Organ 
Prelude  or  Fugue  for  the  Bach  that  was,  for  a 
Sonata,  a  String  Quartette  or  a  Symphony  of  a 
Beethoven  that  tvas,  for  a  Song  or  Impromptu  or 
Moment  Musicale  of  a  Schubert  that  was;  for  a 
Prelude  or  Nocturno  or  Polonaise  or  Mazurka  of 
a  Chopin  that  was;  for  a  national  Opera  by  the 
Glinka  that  was, — ^to-day  as  ever. 

— I  recognize  the  creation  of  to-day  as  an 
advancement  in  the  art — and  if  it  is,  as  you  say, 
only  a  period  of  transition,  it  interests  me  greatly 
more  than  that  which  was.  I  hope  most  assuredly 
to  enjoy  the  future  Bach  or  Beethoven,  and  to 
delight  thoroughly  in  his  new  art. 

— O  happy  being  ! 

— After  having  accompanied  Madame  von 

to  her  carriage,  I  returned  to  my  studio  and 
remained  standing  there,  meditating,  whether  it 
might  not  be  the  musical  Gdtterddmmerung  that 
is  now  breaking  upon  us. 


H.  A.  R06T,  PRINTER,  14  FRANKFORT  ST.,  N,  V. 


Mio 

R6  ^^:a 


THE  LIBRARY 
UNIVERSITY  OF  CALIFORNIA 

Santa  Barbara 


THIS  BOOK  IS  DUE  ON  THE  LAST  DATE 
STAMPED  BELOW. 


APR  11 1987 

RETURNED    APR  2? 


1987 


3  1205  00721    0600 


HL^ 


■■>M.w 


UC  SOUTHERN  REGIONAL  J3RARY  FACILITY 


A     000  631  214     4 


"C  \-     .^-  -        --^^    .     J-.    ■-,  -> 


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